The Stealthy Game A GM Plays With Himself

[Omegaxicor]

Note the lowercase "i".

Noted...

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I keep a list of pregenerated dice rolls for when making secret rolls, and just mark them off accordingly. If I know there's going to be a lot of stealth vs. perception checks, I might write the modifiers for each of those checks at the top of one column of those rolls, and check them down the line beforehand, noting how many checks take place before a triggering event occurs (ie. when a player is going to spot a critter). This way it takes up essentially no time at the game.

I like to have some privacy when I'm playing with myself.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I assume my players aren't listening/looking for something if they don't explicitly say so. If you're on an adventure, and you're being serious about it, you'd better be on danger mode when you're in the dungeon/wilderness, so I expect the player's attitude to reflect this alertness.

I really hate it when DMs do this. I do not have to be specifically doing anything for external stimuli to reach my sensory organs. I currently have a DM that is very bad about this, and I feel stupid continually having to say, "I look around. Do I see anything that seems out of the ordinary or possibly threatening?" over and over again.

 

[kitcik]

The Stealthy Game A GM Plays With Himself

Is that why they call you "Water Bob"?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I really hate it when DMs do this. I do not have to be specifically doing anything for external stimuli to reach my sensory organs.

I want to comment to this personally from real life experience.
As being someone who grew up just outside New York City and then moved to Ohio as an adult, I want to cite the HUGE difference between walking thru NYC at night, actively listening as you walk, actively glancing down an alleyway and walking with a buddy down the street, chatting and unconcerned about the environment. Moving to Ohio, I had been unfamiliar with having to drive at night and pay attention to the frequent possibility of Deer on the side of and in the road. Huge difference in my ability to spot a Deer and my response time when I'm thinking of looking for them vs. when my mind is wandering on my way home.

Active Spot and Listen checks will better catch what passive Spot and Listen checks miss.

Bringing it back to the game. I do not require my players to make a check every 6 seconds as they travel through the woods. I do however make the distinction between when the Ranger declares walking through the woods with his bow drawn, arrow in hand, looking off the road for signs of danger, and when the party is RPing some dialogue as they make their way down the trail. If the Ranger is ready while the rest chat, he's the one that get's a check at full strength, the rest get a penalty.

My players get this, and if they get jumped because they didn't setup a rotation of someone being the designated alert person, they don't complain.

I currently have a DM that is very bad about this, and I feel stupid continually having to say, "I look around. Do I see anything that seems out of the ordinary or possibly threatening?" over and over again.

Now the way I DM this, if they're going down the dungeon corridor and one or more players say, "I look around. Do I see anything that seems out of the ordinary or possibly threatening?" I expect they remain in this state until they:
-Actively change it by declaring doing something else
-Switching to RP dialogue that gets involved to the point of clearly being distracting (like engaging in a debate, threatening another player, trying to coerce another player, singing, etc.)
-Declaring attention to be on something specific instead of the environment at large ("Oh, a drawer, I wonder what's in it?")
-Actually discovering a threat ("A monster appears!") and engaging that monster instead of declaring being alert for any other monsters.
...and the like.

Once engaged with a monster, usually one of my players says something to the effect of "I'm looking around to see if there are any more." This behavior is rewarded.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

The problem with this is that the character knows the outcome of his roll.

If he rolls poorly, then he's on guard anyway because he knows that if there is something out there, he didn't detect it.

If he rolls well, he can relax knowing with certainty that there's nothing out there because, if there was, his throw would have detected it.

For me that's the main issue with the players rolling it. If a player rolls a 1 some players will be more cautious, even though, in-game, they should have no reason to do so.

I find it easier to have their bonuses written down and roll when needed.

The other way to handle it is to assume that, unless the players are specificially stating that they are looking or listening for someone, just assume they are taking 10. This means that you just have to roll for whatever is stalking them and you know what target number you have to roll over or be seen/heard.

Taking 10 is what most of us are doing normally in life anyway.

Olaf the Stout

 

[mc.jesus]

Now the way I DM this, if they're going down the dungeon corridor and one or more players say, "I look around. Do I see anything that seems out of the ordinary or possibly threatening?" I expect they remain in this state until they:
-Actively change it by declaring doing something else
-Switching to RP dialogue that gets involved to the point of clearly being distracting (like engaging in a debate, threatening another player, trying to coerce another player, singing, etc.)
-Declaring attention to be on something specific instead of the environment at large ("Oh, a drawer, I wonder what's in it?")
-Actually discovering a threat ("A monster appears!") and engaging that monster instead of declaring being alert for any other monsters.
...and the like.

Once engaged with a monster, usually one of my players says something to the effect of "I'm looking around to see if there are any more." This behavior is rewarded.

This is the exact same way I handle it.

 

[Water Bob]

I assume my players aren't listening/looking for something if they don't explicitly say so. If you're on an adventure, and you're being serious about it, you'd better be on danger mode when you're in the dungeon/wilderness, so I expect the player's attitude to reflect this alertness.

I agree, to a point. But, there are times when we just glance the right way and see something. Shouldn't there be a chance for that?

I am a stickler for if-you-don't-say-it-then-you-don't-do-it games, but even my players, who are used to saying everything they do, will says, "Whenever I'm doing X, assume I'm also doing Y." As in..."Whenever I'm traveling through the woods, I'll be mindful of my surroundings--which tanslates into Listen and Spot checks very often."

I keep a list of pregenerated dice rolls for when making secret rolls, and just mark them off accordingly.

I read out this technique decades ago in a Dragon magazine. At the time I thought it a pretty good idea, but in all these years, I've never implemented it. I think its the bookkeeping that keeps me away.

I like to have some privacy when I'm playing with myself.

I thought the Subject line of this thread was a bit provocative, and I've been waiting for someone to say something. DING! You win, beating kitcik out for first place!

Is that why they call you "Water Bob"?

Second place. See above.

As being someone who grew up just outside New York City and then moved to Ohio as an adult, I want to cite the HUGE difference between walking thru NYC at night, actively listening as you walk, actively glancing down an alleyway and walking with a buddy down the street, chatting and unconcerned about the environment. Moving to Ohio, I had been unfamiliar with having to drive at night and pay attention to the frequent possibility of Deer on the side of and in the road. Huge difference in my ability to spot a Deer and my response time when I'm thinking of looking for them vs. when my mind is wandering on my way home.

This is a very good point. But I don't think it 100% correct because I know, from experience, that we just happen to here or see things sometimes when our minds are very far away from listening or looking. "Hey, Jill, I wanted to talk to you about our relationship....Holy Smokes! Did you see who was driving that car that just passed! It was your husband!"

Sometimes, we're not looking, but we catch it anyway.

I find it easier to have their bonuses written down and roll when needed.

This, I've done and started to use in the game.

One small problem I've seen so far--it isn't registering with the players is the worth of their skills when they're not rolling the task. They're not saying, "Damn! That Listen skill has really saved my butt a few times...I should put some more points into it."

The other way to handle it is to assume that, unless the players are specificially stating that they are looking or listening for someone, just assume they are taking 10.

That's brilliant. This way, the NPCs are basically rolling against a DC. Much easier to manage. And, instead of rolling 8 times, you can just make one or two rolls again.

 

[Vegepygmy]

To play the stealth rules exactly as written, though, it's kinda hard to do that. EACH character gets a Spot and/or Listen check EACH round.

Where do the rules say they get a check each round? Or are you referring to active Spot and Listen checks?

And, this brings up another question. You're not in combat rounds, so how often do you perform the checks?

Yeah, that's sorta my point. In most situations, I make the check only once--you either spot/hear your opponent sneaking up on you or you don't.

 

[Water Bob]

Where do the rules say they get a check each round? Or are you referring to active Spot and Listen checks?

For passive, check the skill description. Under the Spot or Listen skill, see the Action section.

For active, the general rules of skill use apply.

Yeah, that's sorta my point. In most situations, I make the check only once--you either spot/hear your opponent sneaking up on you or you don't.

So, your players have thier characters going cross country. Due to the terrain, they're moving 12 miles per day. You roll a random encounter for that day which ends up being a panther that will stalk the PCs as prey.

At what point do you give your players that ONE check to detect the panther?

Is it at 100 yards, where the panther could be seen but the negative spot mods make it unlikely for the PCs?

Is it at 50 yards?

Is it a 50 feet?

10 feet?

At what point do the PCs get a fair chance of detecting the predator?