The Stealthy Game A GM Plays With Himself

[Michael Silverbane]

For a stalking type situation, I would make checks at the following intervals...

One would happen right away, when the critter began stalking the party.
Then I would do another one after a round, then after a minute, then after ten minutes, then after an hour, then after 6 hours, then each 6 hours after that.
Finally, I would give one more set of checks just before the critter made its move (whatever that was).

 

[Water Bob]

Not unless you can point to the rule that requires it. Which, it seems, you cannot.

I've pointed to several rules that show you the light. I can't open your eyes for you.

You didn't answer my situational question.

You're playing a thief. You're at the mouth of a cave. The cave is 350' deep, fairly flat, with a floor of cut stone. This cult has carve this cave into a room for their holy sword.

You're there to steal the sword.

The sword rests on a dias 300' into cave. Centered.

On each side of the cave, at the 1/3 and 2/3 horizontal marks, are columns. The columns are in a row, 10 feet a part, all the way down past the dias.

There's a guard that stands at attention at each column.

Got the picture? Cave mouth. Big, wide, 300' path to the dias and the sword. On each side, there is a row of columns, spaced every 10', to the back of the cavern. At each column is a guard.

It's your job to sneak in, grab the sword, and leave the area the way you came.



How are you going to play this in your game and only roll for Move Silently and Hide once?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I've pointed to several rules that show you the light. I can't open your eyes for you.

You didn't answer my situational question.

You're playing a thief. You're at the mouth of a cave. The cave is 350' deep, fairly flat, with a floor of cut stone. This cult has carve this cave into a room for their holy sword.

You're there to steal the sword.

The sword rests on a dias 300' into cave. Centered.

On each side of the cave, at the 1/3 and 2/3 horizontal marks, are columns. The columns are in a row, 10 feet a part, all the way down past the dias.

There's a guard that stands at attention at each column.

Got the picture? Cave mouth. Big, wide, 300' path to the dias and the sword. On each side, there is a row of columns, spaced every 10', to the back of the cavern. At each column is a guard.

It's your job to sneak in, grab the sword, and leave the area the way you came.



How are you going to play this in your game and only roll for Move Silently and Hide once?

In this situation I would roll many, many Hide and Move Silently checks.
This particular situation plays out like a Metal Gear game. Many, many checks in this.

However, I personally would not have a lot of fun playing this. Also, (and I'm partial to using magic to address any situation), I'd find a way to acquire invisibility and silence spells to move across the area instead of mundane skills in this particular scenario.

 

[Water Bob]

In this situation I would roll many, many Hide and Move Silently checks.

Yet, with a panther stalking the party, you'd roll once, no matter the distance between the two.

It could be possible to see the panther 300 yards away. Or, maybe, they catch site of him 30 feet away.

 

[Water Bob]

OK, everyone, I'm still trying to get my head around RAW.

Let's look at the panther situation I just mentioned.

The PCs are moving cross country using the Overland (One Day) scale. The GM rolls a random encounter for a panther and decides it is stalking the party as they move along their route.

The Panther is a 3 HD creature with: Listen +6; Spot +6; Hide +8; Spot +6; and Move Silently +8. It's got the special abilities of low-light vision and scent. And, it has the Alertness and Track Feats.

Obviously, this is a stalking creature (even if we didn't know that from real life).



I'm interested in what you think RAW says. How does a GM go about fairly having this panther stalk the party but also giving the party a chance to catch sight of it.

The panter is considered a medium sized animal, thus there are no size modifiers between it and humans (the party is all human).




The first thing I question under this scenario is the -1 modifier to the Spot check for each 10 feet of distance. I know that I can easily see a man sized creature at quite a long distance if terrain doesn't get in the way. But, the rule makes it almost impossible at 200 feet or less.


How does the panther sneak up on the party using RAW rules?





EDIT: If I were running this situation today, I'd throw a terrain modifier in there. Hilly areas like Cimmeria, where sight lines are constantly changeing, would get a random bonus to the Spot throw to offset the distance penalty. Something like this would also work in a forested area where there are a lot of "thin" spots and sight lines constantly change. Out on a flat, open desert, I'd give a pretty good bonus--not random--to the Spot check.

But, this is just me talking. I didn't see anything in RAW about this. And, I'm interested in how this situation should be handled using only RAW.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I've pointed to several rules that show you the light. I can't open your eyes for you.

Thanks for the light, but I asked for text. Plain, simple text that actually says you make more than one opposed skill check. And you can't find it.

You didn't answer my situational question.

I'm sorry. When you answered it for me, I assumed it was a rhetorical question.

You're playing a thief...

How are you going to play this in your game and only roll for Move Silently and Hide once?

I'm not sure I completely understand the scenario. You didn't mention any lighting conditions; are there any shadows or darkness to provide concealment? Do the columns afford me enough cover to attempt a Hide check? I don't see anything else in the description that might allow it.

Well, let's just assume there's cover or concealment of some kind, because otherwise the task is impossible, anyway. And there are what, 60 guards in all? Okay.

I tell the DM I want to sneak past the guards and steal the sword. I show him the path I intend to take (which either affords sufficient cover or I am somehow concealed), and how fast I'm going to move (no more than one-half my speed, obviously, since I don't want to take any penalties). Then I roll my Hide and Move Silently checks.

The DM can either roll 60 Spot and 60 Listen checks for the guards, or assume they are taking 10. (I would assume they're taking 10, both because I wouldn't want to roll 120 times and because they have no reason to be particularly alert.) So if my Hide and Move Silently checks beat their (best) Spot and Listen checks, I successfully sneak past them.

If my checks weren't good enough, I'm going to be seen and/or heard. If the guards are all taking 10, it's going to be pretty easy for the DM to determine who sees or hears me first, based on their check results and the distance from me to them along the path I've chosen. If the guards are all rolling their checks, it's going to be a challenge for the DM to keep track of the varying results, but mathematically straightforward to determine who sees or hears me first.

Once the guards become aware of me, we roll for initiative and enter into combat rounds. Until then, there is no need to track individual rounds. It will take me several minutes (at least) to sneak in, get the sword, and get out, but there's no reason to track things round by round.

Any questions?

 

[Water Bob]

Any questions?

Not really. No offense, but I'm not convinced that you know RAW very well. You play the way you play, and that's great. More power to you. But most of the time when I post, I'm looking for someone who understands what is written in the rulebook. You've convinced me that you don't.

For example, you told someone in another thread that they can use the Delay action to go between two other characters who have tied initiative. That's not technically true, as I explain in that thread.

Up above, you say:

The DM can either roll 60 Spot and 60 Listen checks for the guards, or assume they are taking 10.

That's not quite true either. Under the Listen skill, in the section marked "Special", it clearly says that when several characters are listening to the same thing, a single 1d20 roll can be used for all the individuals' Listen checks.

And then there's your misunderstanding of when to make Move Silently/Listen/Spot/Hide checks, which we've been discussing in this thread.

Given all of this, I think you have strong opinions about the game rules, but I don't think you know them as well as you think you do.

And, what I'm looking for is a better understanding of RAW--something I don't think you can give me.

I mean none of this in a disrepectful or snarky way. It's just what you've shown me so far.

 

[Water Bob]

This Article addresses some issues with the d20 Stealth mechanics. It offers not a lot of answers but yet more questions.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Not really. No offense, but I'm not convinced that you know RAW very well. You play the way you play, and that's great. More power to you. But most of the time when I post, I'm looking for someone who understands what is written in the rulebook. You've convinced me that you don't.

For example, you told someone in another thread that they can use the Delay action to go between two other characters who have tied initiative. That's not technically true, as I explain in that thread.

Go check that thread. I just proved how it is true.

That's not quite true either. Under the Listen skill, in the section marked "Special", it clearly says that when several characters are listening to the same thing, a single 1d20 roll can be used for all the individuals' Listen checks.

Pehaps you don't understand what the word "can" means. It means it is optional. The DM can roll the checks for all 60 guards, or he can use a single roll for all of them, or he can (as always with skills) assume they are taking 10. He does not have to use a single roll for all of them, just because he can.

And then there's your misunderstanding of when to make Move Silently/Listen/Spot/Hide checks, which we've been discussing in this thread.

And which you have been utterly unable to prove is a misunderstanding on my part. That must really be frustrating for you.

Given all of this, I think you have strong opinions about the game rules, but I don't think you know them as well as you think you do.

I do have strong opinions about the game rules, both as to what they are as written and what they should be. As to whether I know them as well as I think I do, I remain open to the possibility that I don't. As I've said several times, if you can just point to some text that proves me wrong, I will readily concede the matter.

But so far, you haven't. And since my interpretation leads to better results than yours does (at least in my strong opinion), I will of course stick with mine until you do.

And, what I'm looking for is a better understanding of RAW--something I don't think you can give me.

One can lead a horse to water, but one can't make it drink.

I mean none of this in a disrepectful or snarky way. It's just what you've shown me so far.

Vigorous debate is easily mistaken for disrespect or snarkiness, especially on the Internet. I accept your disclaimer as true, and reciprocate the sentiment. No hard feelings.

 

[Water Bob]

Go check that thread. I just proved how it is true.

Your turn to read the thread. I just claimed that....it isn't true, and supported it with words from the Rules Compendium!

And which you have been utterly unable to prove is a misunderstanding on my part. That must really be frustrating for you.

To be fair, I don't think you've got it right, and I don't think I've got a good handle on it, either.

I accept your disclaimer as true, and reciprocate the sentiment. No hard feelings.

Agreed.