D&D General The Transition of a D&D World into the Industrial Era

[doctorbadwolf]

Okay, so it seems like some of my ideas are coming together, aided by the input of others.

A question, put forth for discussion:

"How would the mass proliferation of firearms affect rabble uprisings. When aided by magic, could the rabble overthrow nobility? How would a French-Revolution-esque uprising be aided or depreciated by the proliferation of firearms and the spread of knowledge on how to gain access to certain types of magic (especially Warlock pacts)?"

Depends on the specifics of said proliferation. How common are level 1 warlocks, peasant paladins, bards, etc? Would there be things like fighters and rogues with non-wizard versions of eldritch knight and arcane trickster subclasses (and the npc equivalents thereof, obviously)?

Is there low level magic that a blacksmith can learn as part of their training that could benefit firearms such that a village smith could empower the arms of a peasant revolt?

What about low level magic that helps keep a peasant revolutionary fed, healthy, etc? Controlling food is a huge part of how peasant revolts were put down, historically. Much more than actual violence. Most revolts aren't crushed by military might, they are intimidated by military presence, which is used to reinforce the looming threat of starvation.

 

[Tony Vargas]

"How would the mass proliferation of firearms affect rabble uprisings.

Proliferation of firearms would hurt the rabble a lot when disciplined troops cleared the streets with musket volleys and grape shot, even if it might help get the rabble going because of the little training it requires to use a gun.

When aided by magic, could the rabble overthrow nobility? How would a French-Revolution-esque uprising be aided or depreciated by the proliferation of firearms and the spread of knowledge on how to gain access to certain types of magic (especially Warlock pacts)?"

This is 5e, and magic isn't the most important thing, it's the only important thing. Of course, the side that gets the most or most-powerful magic working for it will most likely come out on top, it's no less true for the guards being snuck past invisibly, commanded by a shape-changed imposter, or mind-controlled outright being armed with muskets or breach-loaders or even early repeating firearms rather than crossbows.

The rising tide of human desperation that led to the revolutions would sure be fertile ground for any supernatural entities peddling Pacts, yes. The establishment, then, would natural side with whatever Church-equivalent can provide Paladins &c to exterminate the resulting plague of Warlocks.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is 5e, and magic isn't the most important thing, it's the only important thing. Of course, the side that gets the most or most-powerful magic working for it will most likely come out on top, it's no less true for the guards being snuck past invisibly, commanded by a shape-changed imposter, or mind-controlled outright being armed with muskets or breach-loaders or even early repeating firearms rather than crossbows.

That just isn't true, Tony.

It only even comes close to being true at rather high level among PCs, but if we look at low level PCs, it's not that hard for fighters and rogues to kill wizards and even clerics. If the peasants have guns, they need even less training to kill wizards. (easily modeled by firearms not requiring any training to gain proficiency, or perhaps only needing an hour or so of training)

Also, just a note, the most successful peasant revolts I can think of happened after the proliferation of firearms, not before, so I'm not sure I buy the idea that firearms help the powerful more than the peasants. ONce you get to the point where muskets or rifles replacing bows as the hunting and home defense weapon of the average farmer, peasant revolts are easier to pull off.

 

[Beleriphon]

A question, put forth for discussion:

"How would the mass proliferation of firearms affect rabble uprisings. When aided by magic, could the rabble overthrow nobility? How would a French-Revolution-esque uprising be aided or depreciated by the proliferation of firearms and the spread of knowledge on how to gain access to certain types of magic (especially Warlock pacts)?"

Probably yes. The French Revolution was driven by a bunch of things one of which was an absolute monarch that absolutely wasn't a particularly good leader. If Louis had capitulated earlier to a parliamentary monarchy like the United Kingdom the revolution probably wouldn't have actually happened the way it did. Even if he'd had a competent accountant it probably wouldn't have happened.

A major part of the lead up was Louis more or less being lied to in the assessment of the financial state of France. By the time he got good number he got bad advice and ended up taxing the aristocracy and reducing their social privileges as well. So it was the aristocracy that stopped a number of Louis' reforms because it took away their some of their privileged status in France. The loss of privilege came in no small part from basically selling a title to anybody that could afford one, something that didn't sit well with the actual landed nobility. Combine that with an Estates-General bickering with each other, so the newly minted nobility was the same rank as the landed noble and had the same weight but not the same views, and you have real problems.

Anyways, peasant revolts need basically two things: leaders who either aren't peasants or charismatic to make up for being peasants (or both ideally), and the peasants have to outnumber the people they're revolting against by a significant margin (not difficult really). If you think about it a full blow uprising consisting of 90% of the population in any country will over throw the government without or without firearms. Weapons make it easier, but not necessary.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That just isn't true, Tony.

Yeah, but I couldn't resist the temptation to paraphrase the old saw about winning.

it's not that hard for fighters and rogues to kill wizards and even clerics. If the peasants have guns, they need even less training to kill wizards. (easily modeled by firearms not requiring any training to gain proficiency, or perhaps only needing an hour or so of training)

If you just look at standing toe to toe or trading shots, magic isn't calibrated to be overwhelmingly conventionally lethal, sure.
But the range of things it does, as I alluded to, makes the difference. It doesn't matter if you give the guard a stick, a spear, a crossbow or a firearm, if he enemy slip past him invisibly, or walks up in the form of his commanding officer and sends him away.

How common and well-known magic and its capabilities are also matters. The 'lower magic' the world, the less the non-magic-using majority will be prepared to cope with it... hmm... actually, if the dissemination of knowledge and rise in literacy results in more mages, it might also result in more widely-spread knowledge of what mages can do, and therefore greater preparedness to deal with them...
...hadn't thought that all the way through.

Also, just a note, the most successful peasant revolts I can think of happened after the proliferation of firearms, not before, so I'm not sure I buy the idea that firearms help the powerful more than the peasants. ONce you get to the point where muskets or rifles replacing bows as the hunting and home defense weapon of the average farmer, peasant revolts are easier to pull off.

Firearms reduced the amount of training and cost to field troops. That helped revolutions start, surely. Whether it helped them win, maybe - it can only have increased the body counts, too.

 

[Beleriphon]

Firearms reduced the amount of training and cost to field troops. That helped revolutions start, surely. Whether it helped them win, maybe - it can only have increased the body counts, too.

The ability of a a revolution to succeed is predicated on its ability to eliminate its former governing structure and replace it with something relatively stable. The big problem is getting to that state of Thermidor and keeping things calm once guillotines and murder stop being useful. In fact it is generally the reason most revolutionary governments are in a constant state of anti-revolutionary repression, since its an internal fight against and internal government there's always groups internally that want to go back to the way things were. Which is different that what I think is the most significant political revolution since the English Civil war: the American Revolution. The Americans at the highest level were largely united in wanting to be free of the King, so after they won there wasn't anybody left as a counter revolutionary they had to guard against trying to bring the King back. That isn't to say there weren't problems, but a counter revolution wasn't really one of them

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If you just look at standing toe to toe or trading shots, magic isn't calibrated to be overwhelmingly conventionally lethal, sure.
But the range of things it does, as I alluded to, makes the difference. It doesn't matter if you give the guard a stick, a spear, a crossbow or a firearm, if he enemy slip past him invisibly, or walks up in the form of his commanding officer and sends him away.

How common and well-known magic and its capabilities are also matters. The 'lower magic' the world, the less the non-magic-using majority will be prepared to cope with it... hmm... actually, if the dissemination of knowledge and rise in literacy results in more mages, it might also result in more widely-knowledge of what mages can do, and therefore greater preparedness to deal with them...
...hadn't thought that all the way through.

Firearms reduced the amount of training and cost to field troops. That helped revolutions start, surely. Whether it helped them win, maybe - it can only have increased the body counts, too.

But invisibility and disguise self aren’t useful at all to the guard or a soldier trying to put down a revolt.

Even a government spy who can appear as a revolutionary magically will be found out by physical interaction, lack of knowledge of pass phrases, etc.

Compare that to the benefit of that magic to the revolutionary.

But even if we count that usefulness as equal somehow, mundane skill that requires roughly the same training will counter the magical enemy just fine. Invisibility doesn’t make you immune to perception, nor do illusions.

If we are comparing magic to mundane skill, we have to actually take into account what skills can do.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But invisibility and disguise self aren’t useful at all to the guard or a soldier trying to put down a revolt.

What about the agent trying to get to the instigators of the revolt?

If we are comparing magic to mundane skill, we have to actually take into account what skills can do.

What skills can do is tightly constrained by bounded accuracy and realism.

Compare that to the benefit of that magic to the revolutionary.

Equally significant.

That's why the point about the Warlocks & Paladins sounded interesting. The revolution may well be driven by desperation - revolutionaries might turn to Pacts to gain power. The establishment could turn to the Church to counter. And interesting dynamic, and one that could play into propaganda. "The revolutionaries use infernal magic! They're evil!"

 

[Kobold Avenger]

As far as magic and revolutions go, there's the incident that the Haitian Revolution was started with a Voodoo ritual back in 1791. In a world where magic really does work, that would have done more than just rile up the revolutionaries. The Haitians certainly had help from foreign powers like the British when overthrowing the French, but that ritual is seen as starting the whole thing.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

As far as magic and revolutions go, there's the incident that the Haitian Revolution was started with a Voodoo ritual back in 1791. In a world where magic really does work, that would have done more than just rile up the revolutionaries. The Haitians certainly had help from foreign powers like the British when overthrowing the French, but that ritual is seen as starting the whole thing.

And with folk magic like that on their side, maybe their very successful revolution doesn’t immediately get undermined by the French being able to bully them into “repaying” the French, thus crippling Haiti’s economy with punitive payments that lasted all the way until the 1970’s. Then again, the French were able to do that because the other powers didn’t have Haiti’s back, so...maybe not.