D&D General The Transition of a D&D World into the Industrial Era

[generic]

Okay, you and I probably have differing ideas about human exceptionality, so I won't go any further on 1. On 8, I'm just curius what magic could be doing that makes life better for the rich that wouldn't be simpler applied to the sources of "life suck"?

On the subject of the first statement, my pessimism knows no bounds. Generally, I think of Humanity as a species to stupid to save itself, doomed to a meaningless and brief existence on a worthless planet.

But I kid.

On the subject of the of the second statement, it is much less expensive (in my setting) to just enchant a single home or hire a spellcaster to work in a clean environment than either enchant a factory, or find a spellcaster willing to sit in a sweaty, dirty workhouse all day, breathing in sulphur dioxide.

 

[Beleriphon]

I would respond to the first assertion with a yes. Magic is as hard to learn as advanced nuclear physics, or, even, a more complicated subject. You will not meet many master nuclear physicists, and you won't see many Magic users.

As for number eight, it is just not yet that sooty (that's changing for the worse), and mages don't have the necessary resources to just "clean the factory".

Edit: I should clarify that my statement on magic applies to arcane magic, not necessarily other kinds.

Okay, so magic is the equivalent of Leonardo da Vinci being a painter, sculpture, engineer, and much more all at the same time. So, we might get a team of say four wizards thatt live a sewer with a master we might get a small group of them competing and learning from each other and taking on the odd apprentices like any of the old master might have done.

So, a particular wealth merchant (or head of state, or Pope) can hire Michelangelo to paint something for his home Florence. The lower classes in Rome have probably heard of Michelangelo and maybe even seen some of his work but in all likeliness have never seen the man himself. People living in France have maybe heard of Michelangelo, but have almost definitely not seen any of his work.

Compare to Leonardo da Vinci who the king of France claimed to have held in his arms as Leonardo passed from this world. Da Vinci was beyond famous in his day to quote Giogio Vasari:

In the normal course of events many men and women are born with remarkable talents; but occasionally, in a way that transcends nature, a single person is marvellously endowed by Heaven with beauty, grace and talent in such abundance that he leaves other men far behind, all his actions seem inspired and indeed everything he does clearly comes from God rather than from human skill. Everyone acknowledged that this was true of Leonardo da Vinci, an artist of outstanding physical beauty, who displayed infinite grace in everything that he did and who cultivated his genius so brilliantly that all problems he studied he solved with ease.

Would that sound about right for the greatest of the great archwizards as you envision them?

 

[generic]

Would that sound about right for the greatest of the great archwizards as you envision them?

That would be true of the greatest archwizards of legend, but not of an average wizard. The average wizard is rare but not unimaginably rare (a very skilled nuclear physcist or a brain surgeon). Remember, also, this really only applies to Wizards, not Warlocks or Sorcerers.

 

[Beleriphon]

On the subject of the first statement, my pessimism knows no bounds. Generally, I think of Humanity as a species to stupid to save itself, doomed to a meaningless and brief existence on a worthless planet.

But I kid.

On the subject of the of the second statement, it is much less expensive (in my setting) to just enchant a single home or hire a spellcaster to work in a clean environment than either enchant a factory, or find a spellcaster willing to sit in a sweaty, dirty workhouse all day, breathing in sulphur dioxide.

I think you might want to look at the idea of Eberron's magewrights. They're described as having learned a few simple ritual type abilities to make their work easier. A blacksmith might have picked up a weak version of heat metal that takes 2 minutes (not helpful in combat is the goal here) to use that makes make his work easier as an example

That would be true of the greatest archwizards of legend, but not of an average wizard. The average wizard is rare but not unimaginably rare (a very skilled nuclear physcist or a brain surgeon). Remember, also, this really only applies to Wizards, not Warlocks or Sorcerers.

Sure totally fair, the average wizard is one the equivilent of Michelangelo's apprentices and helpers not the man himself. So a well heeled wizard can present herself as having learned her kills under Aurelious Egama while he King Tauros of Gonk's court mage.

 

[generic]

Sure totally fair, the average wizard is one the equivilent of Michelangelo's apprentices and helpers not the man himself. So a well heeled wizard can present herself as having learned her kills under Aurelious Egama while he King Tauros of Gonk's court mage.

Not quite, but it fits well enough.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I would respond to the first assertion with a yes. Magic is as hard to learn as advanced nuclear physics, or, even, a more complicated subject. You will not meet many master nuclear physicists, and you won't see many Magic users.

Obviously, nuclear physics wasn't a thing in the industrial revolution, so it's not we can get an idea of the numbers of people completing that kind of education. But, if it is just a matter of learning a (very difficult) skill, then if the underlying knowledge gets out - transitions from hermetic master-apprentice & hand-copied tomes to scholastic & printed volumes - you'll have more of them than you used to.

 

[generic]

Obviously, nuclear physics wasn't a thing in the industrial revolution, so it's not we can get an idea of the numbers of people completing that kind of education. But, if it is just a matter of learning a (very difficult) skill, then if the underlying knowledge gets out - transitions from hermetic master-apprentice & hand-copied tomes to scholastic & printed volumes - you'll have more of them than you used to.

Of course. Wizardry will likely become more common over time, but, not for a while. Even individuals with capacity (think about it like fluid intelligence) high enough to learn magic may not as a result of the scarcity of magical tomes and implements. I also like to stick, at least somewhat, to the idea that there are fewer wizards than there could be.

It is not just a representation of number, but also of skill.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Remember, also, this really only applies to Wizards, not Warlocks or Sorcerers.

That's another thing. While access to information in the industrial revolution grows with printing and distribution of books and increasing literacy rates, population is also increasing. And, so is desperation in the lowest classes. You might get more sorcerers, if the population growth is more or less even along all segments, including weird bloodlines. And more people willing to make a Warlock's pact.

Of course, there's also the possibility of certain sources of magical power being actively suppressed. Sorcererous bloodlines could be hunted down and exterminated, or at least discouraged from passing on their curse. Warlocks could be put under automatic sentence of death. OTOH, Sorcerers could be given every opportunity to have large families in the national interest, if they proved loyal. And, a legitimate church able to produce Clerics & Paladins might try very hard to recruit anyone with the ability to adopt those classes - or, again, such 'miracle workers' might not be differentiated from Warlocks, and thus be rare and heretical...

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Of course. Wizardry will likely become more common over time, but, not for a while. Even individuals with capacity (think about it like fluid intelligence) high enough to learn magic may not as a result of the scarcity of magical tomes and implements. I also like to stick, at least somewhat, to the idea that there are fewer wizards than there could be.

It is not just a representation of number, but also of skill.

Okay, so you've simply decided that the proliferation of wizardly magic hasn't accelerated yet, not that it can't. That makes sense to me, since if there is a timeline of proliferation, a game or story has to be set somewhere on that timeline. Greater socio-economic mobility, greater understanding of investment in social goods by rulers, greater access to information and transport, etc, will all create a logical point of acceleration for the development of any complex subject, but the effects will take time to be seen broadly.
Fair enough.

I have a question about the whole "idiosyncratic language" thing from upthread, though. In the 5e phb, at least, wizards can read another wizard's IL, translate it, and copy a spell in their own IL. This suggests that wizard magic is idiosyncratic because people are, not because magic is. Thus, it would make sense that one could, eventually, codify and systematize the learning of spells, especially those of low level.

So, one thing to wonder about, is who is trying to do this. Because the idea that no one is is wholly untenable. Someone, somewhere, is trying to be magic's Paracelsus, and may someday be credited as the grandparent of modern academic magic, or somesuch. ie, not all Alchemists actually tried to keep their findings secret, but instead tried to teach as many willing and able students as they could, review other alchemists works, and develop the sciences based on cross review and experimentation.

 

[generic]

Okay, so it seems like some of my ideas are coming together, aided by the input of others.

A question, put forth for discussion:

"How would the mass proliferation of firearms affect rabble uprisings. When aided by magic, could the rabble overthrow nobility? How would a French-Revolution-esque uprising be aided or depreciated by the proliferation of firearms and the spread of knowledge on how to gain access to certain types of magic (especially Warlock pacts)?"