D&D 5E The Warrior (or how to balance martial's and casters)

[Tales and Chronicles]

I'd play that!

I'd have gone with the warlock chassis myself, putting things fighting styles instead of the pact boon.
Then you have Invocation that could replicate some out-of-combat boons or weapon specializations or improved saves.

 

[FrogReaver]

@dave2008

My houserule was for tier 3 and 4 as my take is martials and casters are balanced enough in tier 1 and most of tier 2. The exploits for tier 3 and 4 haven't been created yet, so it's impossible to tell if this will be balanced there or not. I'll take a fresh look once those are posted.

I will add that it feels rather 4e-esque in martial/caster sameyness to me. In that vein I'm afraid it feels far to magical (which I believe is your intent) and thus it does nothing to address my issues with Martial(Fighter, Barbarian, etc)/Caster Balance in tier 3 and 4.

 

[FrogReaver]

Option 1 is what the "Fighter" class is for. The "Warrior" is not a replacement for the fighter, it is in addition too. If people don't want a martial with this type of flexibility - don't use it.

Option 2 is covered by this class.

So I don't really see those as problems at all.

Sure, but I am not going to worry about 1 spell. That hardly invalidates this approach IMO. If that is really a concern, make wish a 10th level spell that you can only get via an epic boon (which it probably should be).

So I guess see your 3 problems as fairly minor to non-existent.

I think you dismissed the criticism far too quickly and a bit unfairly.

1. This does not balance the Fighter or other martial classes, leaving the players wanting that kind of fictional flavor to be 'weak'.
2. This class is a purely magical Fighter (which is cool in it's own right), but fails the fictional flavor many players are looking for.
3. Wish is kind of the extreme example. Let's talk good 4th+ level spells that will be hard to justify replicating for a 'magical fighter'. I listed a couple of the more difficult to replicate spells (not all because I don't want to overwhelm the discussion).

Level 4
Polymorph
Summon Greater Demon

Level 5
Raise Dead
Wall of Force

Level 6
Mass Suggestion
Wind Walk

Level 7
Teleport
Forcecage

Level 8
Dominate Monster
Maze

Level 9
Wish
Shapechange
Meteor Swarm

I'm interested to see how close your 'Warrior' class comes to those kinds of effects.

 

[Jer]

I like the overall idea. Personally I think it needs a name change tho since Warrior has already been snagged for the sidekick class.

One thing that I might suggest is to consider not having your exploits with a slot system but instead just have a (fewer) number of "Stamina Points" and let them be spent at the highest level of Gambit known (similar to the Warlock, though measured against the Wizard/Sorcerer capabilities since there's no equivalent of Invocations). Possibly having a slightly different way to activate Gambits of 6-9th level (since that's where the perspective on spells "change" - like how the Sorcerer isn't allowed to spend spell points to get extra slots of 6th level or higher, and how the Warlock's level progression stops with 5th levels spells). That would make it feel a bit more like a class that is doing its own thing.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Again? Another thread for another "fighter" class...

How many times are we going to rehash this issue?

@dave2008 I admire the effort, and you know I normally like helping with house-rules and new material, but I just can't go over this again... Sorry.

 

[dave2008]

Again? Another thread for another "fighter" class...

How many times are we going to rehash this issue?

@dave2008 I admire the effort, and you know I normally like helping with house-rules and new material, but I just can't go over this again... Sorry.

No worries, this wasn't for you! IIRC, your sensibilities are more low magic like mine. My approach, if anything, would be to nerf casters a bit rather than make martials superheroes.

 

[dave2008]

@dave2008

My houserule was for tier 3 and 4 as my take is martials and casters are balanced enough in tier 1 and most of tier 2. The exploits for tier 3 and 4 haven't been created yet, so it's impossible to tell if this will be balanced there or not. I'll take a fresh look once those are posted.

Yes, I tapped out at about 3am (starting working this about 11pm)

I will add that it feels rather 4e-esque in martial/caster sameyness to me. In that vein I'm afraid it feels far to magical (which I believe is your intent) and thus it does nothing to address my issues with Martial(Fighter, Barbarian, etc)/Caster Balance in tier 3 and 4.

Yes, it is very 4e-esque. That is intentional as it seemed like that is what @ehren37 was looking for and I made this for them. However, I do plan to update this to use the spell point system (conceptually) in the DMG to remove some of the sameyness issue.

I think you desires are more low magic like mine. Therefore the method to balance is to reduce the magic using classes. I already gave my response on different ways to do that in your thread.

 

[dave2008]

I like the overall idea. Personally I think it needs a name change tho since Warrior has already been snagged for the sidekick class.

Yes this was just a quick idea. If I were to publish this a new name would be good. Any suggestions.

One thing that I might suggest is to consider not having your exploits with a slot system but instead just have a (fewer) number of "Stamina Points" and let them be spent at the highest level of Gambit known (similar to the Warlock, though measured against the Wizard/Sorcerer capabilities since there's no equivalent of Invocations). Possibly having a slightly different way to activate Gambits of 6-9th level (since that's where the perspective on spells "change" - like how the Sorcerer isn't allowed to spend spell points to get extra slots of 6th level or higher, and how the Warlock's level progression stops with 5th levels spells). That would make it feel a bit more like a class that is doing its own thing.

This is just a quick proof of concept. I plan to probably update to run of the spell point system (conceptually) in the DMG to make it less samey.

 

[dave2008]

I'd play that!

I'd have gone with the warlock chassis myself, putting things fighting styles instead of the pact boon.
Then you have Invocation that could replicate some out-of-combat boons or weapon specializations or improved saves.

That sounds like a good option too. The wizard was mentioned in the other thread as the metric, so that is what I used. That and it seemed really easy to make a wizard into a martial. Also, this is still in the beginning stages. I plan to diverge more from the wizard in the future.

 

[dave2008]

I think you dismissed the criticism far too quickly and a bit unfairly.

1. This does not balance the Fighter or other martial classes, leaving the players wanting that kind of fictional flavor to be 'weak'.

If that was @overgeeked 's point I missed that. I am not trying to balance other classes with this thread. I am trying to create the martial class that @ehren37 was looking for in your thread. It needs to be balanced with the Wizard, not Fighter. That is a different can of worms and not the intent of this project.

2. This class is a purely magical Fighter (which is cool in it's own right), but fails the fictional flavor many players are looking for.

See my response to #1 above. That is not the intent of this project (mundane fighter). I already gave my suggestions on how to do that (balance Mundane Fighter and Wizard/Magic Users) in your thread.

3. Wish is kind of the extreme example. Let's talk good 4th+ level spells that will be hard to justify replicating for a 'magical fighter'. I listed a couple of the more difficult to replicate spells (not all because I don't want to overwhelm the discussion).

Level 4
Polymorph
Summon Greater Demon

Not sure yet, but they would be tackled by Martial Traditions I am not focusing on in this first past. Though I am not trying to do everything a Wizard can do, I mean no other class has that versatility. I have given this class things the Wizard doesn't get, so there needs to be some give somewhere.

Level 5
Raise Dead
Wall of Force

Level 6
Mass Suggestion
Wind Walk

Level 7
Teleport
Forcecage

Level 8
Dominate Monster
Maze

I have ideas for some of these; however, my response is mostly the same as my response to the 4th level spells.

Level 9
Wish
Shapechange
Meteor Swarm

I'm not planning to tackle Wish. But I have an idea for Meteor Swarm. I think something like Shapechange is doable, but it would be a different school of Exploits than what I am doing right now.

I'm interested to see how close your 'Warrior' class comes to those kinds of effects.

Me too! FYI, I plan to have this first past "proof-of-concept" completed this weekend. It will not address everything you discuss, but it show the direction.