Things I hate

[BryonD]

jdavis,

That is all cool with me. I did nto refer to anything in your style of play as being BS. Calling either form better than the other is the BS.

I do find this sentence a bit interesting....

To me using a grid would ruin the game, it would be like wargaming instead of role playing.

While I understand the difference between wargames such as warhammer and RPGs such as D&D, I think it is a bit closed minded to imply they are exclusive. While D&D is an RPG, the combat system is a (very simple) simulation and thus a form of wargame. Heck, many people have stated that the reason they had no interest in Chainmail (a pure wargame) was that it was not able to really do anything that 3E could not already do.

If you are taking a BAB of 7, adding a +2 STR mod and a +1 enhancement bonus to a d20 roll to see if you hit a target AC, then you are wargaming. Whether you use a grid or not. And whether you did nothing but 100% immersion roleplaying for 3 hours before and 3 hours after that one roll also does not change it.

Further, the 3E system defaults to the use of minatures and an objective scale. If you don't use that, you are houseruling. Now that is, of course, 100% fine. I use plenty of house rules myself. But I can not imagine myself ever saying that someone not using my house rules would "ruin" the game.

Anyway, I think you have misunderstood exactly what I was referring to as BS. You said:

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with using a grid ...

barsoomcore's quote in my first post disagrees.

 

[Fenes 2]

For me, one of the main differences between wargaming and roleplaying is that when wargaming you don't play a PC, you move a figure. You don't think what your PC would do, you do the best move you can think of. When roleplaying, you think not like a player, but a character.

All IMHO, of course. But for me as well using a grid is a big step towards wargaming - it makes it easier to think in squares, numbers and moves.

 

[jdavis]

jdavis,

That is all cool with me. I did nto refer to anything in your style of play as being BS. Calling either form better than the other is the BS.

I do find this sentence a bit interesting....


While I understand the difference between wargames such as warhammer and RPGs such as D&D, I think it is a bit closed minded to imply they are exclusive. While D&D is an RPG, the combat system is a (very simple) simulation and thus a form of wargame. Heck, many people have stated that the reason they had no interest in Chainmail (a pure wargame) was that it was not able to really do anything that 3E could not already do.

If you are taking a BAB of 7, adding a +2 STR mod and a +1 enhancement bonus to a d20 roll to see if you hit a target AC, then you are wargaming. Whether you use a grid or not. And whether you did nothing but 100% immersion roleplaying for 3 hours before and 3 hours after that one roll also does not change it.

Further, the 3E system defaults to the use of minatures and an objective scale. If you don't use that, you are houseruling. Now that is, of course, 100% fine. I use plenty of house rules myself. But I can not imagine myself ever saying that someone not using my house rules would "ruin" the game.

Anyway, I think you have misunderstood exactly what I was referring to as BS. You said:


barsoomcore's quote in my first post disagrees.

Yes I think I misread exactly what you were refering to on the BS part, my bad.

I don't think playing without the minatures as using house rules at all, in all actuallity I have been playing D&D for over 20 years and I have never needed minatures. Until I started posting here I didn't realize they were in any way popular to use at all. I have honestly never run into anybody that cared for them in 20 years of gaming. There has been a lot of talk about the topic before and even Monte Cook covered it ( http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly21.html ).

The game can and will be played without the minatures just as it always has, WotC likes minatures because it's something else they can sell but the game can easily be played without them, I don't see where this is house rules being used at all we just don't count hexes on a grid we describe it out or draw it on a scratch sheet of paper if it's real complicated. No grid or minatures but we still use the rules pretty much the way they are written we just use verbal discription and DM judgement instead of a grid.

Using minatures doesn't ruin the game, it is just not how I like to play the game. I'm in no way saying that using minatures is wrong or bad it's just not how I like to game. I trust my DM's judgement and when I'm running the players trust me, we don't have to fight about who was where or how close the orcs were we trust the DM's judgement and move on with the game.

If it's closed minded of me to not like the grid well then I guess that's just how it is, I have tried the grid and I didn't care for it for role playing. As far as the definition of Wargaming goes well I don't have that much concern about the finer points of the definition I was just using it to describe a certain type of games that are called wargames, D&D is not called a wargame it's called a Role Playing game yes both types of games have a lot in common but they are labeled differently. I was conparing the play style not the rule simularities and pointing out a personal preference not a general observation.

 

[Dinkeldog]

kittens and sunshine
kittens and sunshine
kittens and sunshine
kittens and sunshine
kittens and sunshine

 

[rounser]

kittens and sunshine
__________________
Cry Havoc and let slip the Dog of war.

I was going all Ahhhh... and then I ran into your sig.

 

[diaglo]

Games with no gridmaps
and ad hoc Gamemasters,
Monty Haul dungeons
and rules-laden disasters
DM's with players hung out on string,
these are a few of my most hated things.

When the setting sucks,
when the style stinks,
when we're feeling mad,
we just tell the DM to give it a rest,
and then we don't feel so bad.

pretty much the same with me.

now you know why i dislike 3 eee.

 

[Daredevill]

Pet peeves:

PC suicide so the player can roll up the latest, greatest new race or class (this always happens mid - session ).

Players that tip over, drop, fondle, or otherwise handle my painstakingly painted minis in a inappropriate way.

People playing "ghostly" PC's. (they show up on a whim, you never know if they'll make it, just basically unreliable to game with )

That's all for now. I'm sure I'll remember some more after tomorrow's game though.

 

[Fenes 2]

People playing "ghostly" PC's. (they show up on a whim, you never know if they'll make it, just basically unreliable to game with )

That is one of my main peeves as well.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Lack of common sense. (Just ask yourself, whether you are Player or DM, 'If I were this character would what we are doing make sense to me?' If the answer is 'no', then Don't do it!!!

The Auld Grump, who has seen entire parties die like lemmings because they didn't stop and think....

 

[BryonD]

Yes I think I misread exactly what you were refering to on the BS part, my bad.

No big deal.

I started playing AD&D 20 years ago, and I certainly had no minis. And neither did anybody else I payed with back then. It is easy to see how one would establish playing a certain way and stay with it.

But 1E and 2E were very different than 3E in that 3E really does assume the use of minis as default. Still not saying dumping them is bad, just pointign out that there is an assumption there.

Anyway, here is Monte's conclusion from the link you posted:

Overall, it comes down to communicating with the players. Find out what their intent is, and adjudicate from there. Take control of the game and make judgment calls -- consistent judgment calls. You'll do fine.

The most important thing I can say about playing without miniatures is this: Don't look at it as if it's some "wrong" or "lesser" way of playing. Use the fact that the game is going on entirely in everyone's imagination, and describe everything with an evocative flair. Forget about tactical rules and focus on the descriptive powers at your command. Enjoy the freedom of having no limitations before you.

Maybe Monte has a better command of language than me. But I have not disputed a single point here. I have said that, if you don't use minis, making sure you fully understand everyone's intent can slow down the game and that you have to abandon some of the tactics that the rules supply.