D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

[Mathilda]

I disagree that skill can't "fix" luck.

Perhaps in the more powergamey versions the "skill" is in building your character and executing sequences such that luck plays no roll: if you set everything up right, you ARE going to WTFPWN your target.

In 5e that's less likely to work. There's probably going to be a greater chance for something to go wrong because of a bad roll on your part, or a good roll from your target.

So where the skill comes in is in being ready for that; in preparing and planning so that a string of bad luck doesn't sink you.

I can't help but think of Jim Collins' most recent book, "Great By Choice". He analyzes a number of very successful companies (which is what he does in all of his books), comparing each one to a competitor that at one point looked similar, but over the long term didn't perform as well. His main finding was that the wildly successful companies prepared for luck, both good and bad, and were better able to capitalize on the former and mitigate the latter. And for both scenarios the key components were resource reserves and disciplined adherence to a plan.

Seems to me there's a lesson for powergamers here. Make sure you conserve resources (spell slots, special abilities) in case things go badly (or have an unexpected opportunity). Have an escape plan. And don't panic and change your plan if the dice surprise you.

It's a different flavor of skill, perhaps, than in previous editions. But I'd argue it's actually a more subtle and harder skill than reading the forums and picking the right build.

All players should be doing this (conserving resources always), not just powergamers

 

[pming]

Hiya.

Maybe its because I came from videogames but these two sentiments have always confused the hell out of me.

1. Why exactly is it bad that someone is good at the game (i.e.: Powergameing and heavy optimizing)
2. Why is it so many GM's have trouble giving up control? I mean yeesh you guys are acting like they are pulling your teeth out by trying to have fun.

First, I'll tackle #2. How would you feel if the GM could point to some rules, or use some ultra-super-duper mechanical combo that forced your character to do something you didn't want him/her to do? Thing is, IME, powergamers (re: munchkins) get some kind of satisfaction in being able to point to something or some things in a rule book that "trumps" what the DM is describing as happening. The powergamer says "No! See? Look, I have this class, this other class, this Feat chain, this weapon, and I just used this Spell. So no, the djinn is totally visible to me, and I can also attack once for free, and I get to do it again as a Bonus action if I hit him! So...nyaaa!" In short, the PG is removing the DM's choice of how to adjudicate a game by trotting out rules and such. If a DM tried to pull that all the time on a player? *shudder*

Now, with #1. Also IME, I've found that most PG's think they are 'good at the game' because they master the rules and memorize the specials...and then spend days trying to manipulate what those rules say in order to pull off some rule-mechanics monstrosity. Why? So that they can 'win' most of the time without thinking. Y'see...knowing rules and memorizing 'power-combos' doesn't make you good at the game. It makes you good at min/maxing. Take away min/maxing, and a PG is left with little to fall back on....take away min/maxing from someone who doesn't do it, and the person doesn't even notice the game play has changed.

Besides... A Hero isn't someone who wades into battle knowing he'll win. A Hero is someone who wades into battle knowing he'll loose.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[S'mon]

The 4E defender role is a mix of defense and control. In 5E, both of those are things you need to spend resources on. A 4E defender got both of those for free at level 1.

No, defence does not require spending resources. A Barbarian for one gets it for free with his
class powers. Control IME does require spending resources on feats or choosing the appropriate
Fighter fighting style.

 

[pemerton]

No, defence does not require spending resources. A Barbarian for one gets it for free with his
class powers. Control IME does require spending resources on feats or choosing the appropriate
Fighter fighting style.

Between this, and your post upthread about the barbarian you are GMing and the barbarian you are playing, it sounds like barbarians are the new fighters!

 

[pemerton]

So where the skill comes in is in being ready for that; in preparing and planning so that a string of bad luck doesn't sink you.

<snip>

Seems to me there's a lesson for powergamers here. Make sure you conserve resources (spell slots, special abilities) in case things go badly (or have an unexpected opportunity). Have an escape plan. And don't panic and change your plan if the dice surprise you.

It's a different flavor of skill, perhaps, than in previous editions. But I'd argue it's actually a more subtle and harder skill than reading the forums and picking the right build.

All players should be doing this (conserving resources always), not just powergamers

I'm not sure if my 4e group counts as "powergaming" or not. A couple of the PCs seem fairly optimised (an AoE sorcerer and a melee control fighter), but we have an invoker/wizard who is strong out of combat but doesn't do much in combat besides the basics that a controller gets for free (powers that slow, powers that blind, at upper epic powers that dominate, etc), a ranger-cleric whose damage numbers don't match what I've seen posted on these boards, and a CHA-paladin that I don't really have a good handle on even 7 years in.

I think the group plays pretty well, and in the past when I've posted about the group making it through 8 or 10 level or above encounters without an extended rest, I've been told that this is a significant bucking of the system expectations. (I don't think the 4e DMG actually stipulates a number of encounters between rests, does it?)

But anyway, the group does like strategy and tactics. But one thing that I'm not sure is fun is conserving resources. Big guns are more fun when they're used than when they're conserved.

That's not to say that you should use them rashly; but in 4e it is possible to blow the big guns (dailies, mostly) and still get by on encounter powers if more trouble ensues. From the posts I've quoted above it seems that 5e has moved back a bit more to the AD&D model, of generating pressure to conserve big guns that can then result in them not being used at all.

Is that right? And is this only relevant to 5e casters, or also to 5e fighters, barbarians etc. (Eg conserving Rage, or Action Surge, until its really needed?)

 

[dmnqwk]

As a former number cruncher I agree 5e is primarily for the storyteller. Having said that though I have really enjoyed changing my style from min/maxing my stats to getting abilities and such for fun. I also love how fun the new bard is, they are great for players who want to matter but like helping everyone.

 

[mflayermonk]

Thanks for sharing the interesting thoughts TCO.
Have you tried walking around in magical darkness with a Warlock's Devil's Sight as a starter for optimization?

 

[GX.Sigma]

This thread is about how I'm dealing with joining an Encounters game.

Ohhhhhh. You should've mentioned that in the first post, because that completely changes the conversation. Yeah, 5e kinda sucks for Encounters (or is it vice versa?).

 

[S'mon]

Between this, and your post upthread about the barbarian you are GMing and the barbarian you are playing, it sounds like barbarians are the new fighters!

Yup. There's also a Barbarian-4 in my 5e Shattered Star tabletop game, he has Polearm Master + Sentinel and is extremely powerful, generally 3 attacks/round, very tough, locks down the battlefield around him. Barbarians fill the 4e Defender role extremely effectively. 5e Fighters look like Strikers, but unfortunately feel rather weak by comparison, the Defensive Style Battlemaster Fighter-3 in the game I play has good AC (21) compared to my AC 16, but I do far more damage, can take far more damage, and have some Control too. 5e Paladins are very much Strikers, but only while their Smites hold out.

What I'm seeing is that most 5e campaigns have a Barbarian, while Fighters are less common and more taken by newbie players. Not quite a trap option like in 3e, but a big comedown from the glory days of 4e.

 

[S'mon]

Is that right? And is this only relevant to 5e casters, or also to 5e fighters, barbarians etc. (Eg conserving Rage, or Action Surge, until its really needed?)

In general I find: Action Surge and other Short Rest abilities are best used quickly or
they may be wasted. Barbarian Rage is definitely best used right away, for one thing it greatly reduces the amount of healing the party will need afterwards - its use conserves more resources than it uses in any but the most trivial encounters. But long-rest-recovery spell slots benefit from being
conserved, within reason - the Cleric-12 in my Wilderlands game can be over-conservative; eg once the party was being rushed by a horde of werewolf berserkers and he opened with a cantrip,
risking TPK. But Daily casters do want to keep some slots in reserve whenever possible.