D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[Treantmonklvl20]

That point is pretty important, and it doesn't apply just to illusions... any fixed point spell is impacted.

This has tactical considerations because spells attached to an object now become mobile....

Every fixed point spell already moves in every campaign. I agree the DM precident has massive tactical implications.

Pretend you are the DM (anyone reading this)

This is the scenario. A cargo ship is being loaded. Dock crew use a ramp to load a cart laden with crates and chests onto the deck of the ship. The cart is moved to the stairs to the cargo deck where deckhands take the crates and chests belowdeck.

As the cart moves to the stairs, one of the crewman on the cart cast a "stationary" illusion on an open chest to make it appear full.

At your table, how does the illusion move?

A) it moves with the sea bed below, bobbing and weaving in and out of the chest with the waves?
B) it moves with the water, flowing out of the chest as it follows the ocean currents
C) it moves with the deck of the ship, moving out of the back of the chest when the cart moves
D) it moves with the cart, moving in mid air with the cart as it heads back to the dock
E) it remains in the chest it was cast in, moving below deck with the chest as loaded into cargo
F) something really silly, like it moves with techtonic plates or the earth's core, or with the back of the giant turtle this plane resides on

I think the tactical implications of anything but E is a can of worms I would be hesitant to open, but I'm curious which it would be at everyone else's table.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Every fixed point spell already moves in every campaign. I agree the DM precident has massive tactical implications.

Pretend you are the DM (anyone reading this)

This is the scenario. A cargo ship is being loaded. Dock crew use a ramp to load a cart laden with crates and chests onto the deck of the ship. The cart is moved to the stairs to the cargo deck where deckhands take the crates and chests belowdeck.

As the cart moves to the stairs, one of the crewman on the cart cast a "stationary" illusion on an open chest to make it appear full.

At your table, how does the illusion move?

A) it moves with the sea bed below, bobbing and weaving in and out of the chest with the waves?
B) it moves with the water, flowing out of the chest as it follows the ocean currents
C) it moves with the deck of the ship, moving out of the back of the chest when the cart moves
D) it moves with the cart, moving in mid air with the cart as it heads back to the dock
E) it remains in the chest it was cast in, moving below deck with the chest as loaded into cargo
F) something really silly, like it moves with techtonic plates or the earth's core, or with the back of the giant turtle this plane resides on

I think the tactical implications of anything but E is a can of worms I would be hesitant to open, but I'm curious which it would be at everyone else's table.

P.S., no I haven't looked at Eberron yet. If they create an Eberron campaign path, I almost certainly will, but currently I'm expecting that most players won't have access to those options (including me)

 

[jiriku]

I have always made certain assumptions regarding "stationary" illusions. I assume that the illusion is stationary relative to something else.

Every fixed point spell already moves in every campaign. I agree the DM precident has massive tactical implications.

Pretend you are the DM (anyone reading this)

This is the scenario. A cargo ship is being loaded. Dock crew use a ramp to load a cart laden with crates and chests onto the deck of the ship. The cart is moved to the stairs to the cargo deck where deckhands take the crates and chests belowdeck.
As the cart moves to the stairs, one of the crewman on the cart cast a "stationary" illusion on an open chest to make it appear full.
At your table, how does the illusion move?

I get what you mean. We must choose some sort of reference frame and define it as our stationary reference frame.

In your example, if I were behind the DM screen, I'd probably place the spell stationary with respect to the ship, or possibly the cart depending in how big it was (do you push it or do you drive it). For me, the dividing line would be that if it's large enough to be a tactical map that players move around on, then it'll pass, if it's small enough that a player can pick it up and put it in his inventory, then it won't, and if it's somewhere in between, then it's in a difficult gray area. Creatures themselves would be right out unless they were large enough to be a tactical map (giant turtle islands, etc.). If a player were to ask me for a rule of thumb, I'd probably say that fora reference frame to be considered "stationary" it needs to be terrain, even if that terrain is notionally movable like a sailing ship. And it needs to not be something that is trivially portable (i.e. movable without a Vehicles skill check).

But one of the things I'm still wrapping my head around in 5e is that where 3.5 would add several paragraphs to the spell laying out all the edge cases in excruciating detail, 5e just gives you a brief description and leaves fine interpretation up to the DM's preference. "Stationary" will vary from one DM's table to to the next, and that's OK. I'll ask my DM about it as well.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

I get what you mean. We must choose some sort of reference frame and define it as our stationary reference frame.

In your example, if I were behind the DM screen, I'd probably place the spell stationary with respect to the ship, or possibly the cart depending in how big it was (do you push it or do you drive it). For me, the dividing line would be that if it's large enough to be a tactical map that players move around on, then it'll pass, if it's small enough that a player can pick it up and put it in his inventory, then it won't, and if it's somewhere in between, then it's in a difficult gray area. Creatures themselves would be right out unless they were large enough to be a tactical map (giant turtle islands, etc.). If a player were to ask me for a rule of thumb, I'd probably say that fora reference frame to be considered "stationary" it needs to be terrain, even if that terrain is notionally movable like a sailing ship. And it needs to not be something that is trivially portable (i.e. movable without a Vehicles skill check).

But one of the things I'm still wrapping my head around in 5e is that where 3.5 would add several paragraphs to the spell laying out all the edge cases in excruciating detail, 5e just gives you a brief description and leaves fine interpretation up to the DM's preference. "Stationary" will vary from one DM's table to to the next, and that's OK. I'll ask my DM about it as well.

This would probably work, though I doubt anything that requires imagining what would be its own tactical map would be RAI. (Jeremy Crawford has been consistent specifically stating we should not imagine how things work on a tactical map when imagining how things work in game).

If my DM makes a similar ruling, I won't have an issue, though I will start bringing a cart with us! (We will also need to determine what happens when I cast "enlarge/reduce" on that cart)

 

[Langland]

It's an interesting question because if you define your point of reference as something like a cart it has potential large implications for spells like glyph of warding (portable buffs)or hallow.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

It's an interesting question because if you define your point of reference as something like a cart it has potential large implications for spells like glyph of warding (portable buffs)or hallow.

There are multiple examples given in the Glyph of Warding as valid targets for the spell far more portable than a cart.

 

[Langland]

I guess the table? The objects it references can't be moved more than 10feet from where you cast it without breaking the spell, but if you are on a cart when you cast it...

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

I guess the table? The objects it references can't be moved more than 10feet from where you cast it without breaking the spell, but if you are on a cart when you cast it...

To be honest, the way I read it, nothing can be moved more than 10 feet from the initial casting location. This leads us around to the same question. You find a spellbook in the Wizards study of the Cog you are exploring. Can we be certain it's Glyph free because it's on a moving ship?

 

[Langland]

To be honest, the way I read it, nothing can be moved more than 10 feet from the initial casting location. This leads us around to the same question. You find a spellbook in the Wizards study of the Cog you are exploring. Can we be certain it's Glyph free because it's on a moving ship?

That's essentialy what I was referencing. I guess I always interpreted things like casting location as fixed points in space by default, and that the rules weren't simulationist/granular enough to account for things like relative motion without a ruling from the DM. After all in a fantasy setting things like tectonic movement or even spherical worlds moving through space arn't necessarily assumptions we can make. Now, a DM is probably going to have some interpretation for what constitutes an acceptable reference point, and weather that is the "ground," or a ship, or a chest, or a body is going to have some definite implications for the usefulness of the spell, but i dont rhink we can know those without knowing a Dm's particular interpretation. (I have no idea if this subject has officially been ruled on, and am totally willing to recant any or all of what I just just said if it turns out I am mistaken)

 

[jiriku]

To be honest, the way I read it, nothing can be moved more than 10 feet from the initial casting location. This leads us around to the same question. You find a spellbook in the Wizards study of the Cog you are exploring. Can we be certain it's Glyph free because it's on a moving ship?

It really has to be this way, or else you get glyph-based hand grenades and cannon balls. But I suppose that, again, if "initial casting location" is defined with respect to a vehicle, you could glyph a spellbook in the captain's cabin and as long as you didn't remove it from the cabin it would work.

Hmmm... I see what you mean. This is a thorny issue to consider.