Turn Undead should be removed!

[moritheil]

Turning undead should have been a spell from the start. There's no excuse for it not having been.

D&D Design Sin Number 47: Creating a new power/resource mechanic for a class that already has one that could have done the job. See the Elocater for reference. The class already has power points. It gains Psionic Teleport and Psionic Plane Shift as bonus powers. But it gains Psionic Dimensional Door as a once per day ability? Why, I ask you, why?!?

True, but the plethora of divine feats that turned Turn Undead into a customizable suite of abilities more than made up for that.

 

[Raduin711]

Thing with 4th edition is that Radiant energy... ...would be from the Feywild.

Would be?

 

[Incenjucar]

Would be?

Wouldn't it?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well they have said no Power Sources are linked to any plane, so I doubt a form of energy (power) be linked to any one plane.

 

[Raduin711]

Damaging undead, and holding them at bay is more fun than making them flee down some random corridor.

I wonder if the changes to how the cleric class mechanics work will absorb turning as a prayer, or whether it will be a separate system to the rest of their abilities.

 

[kennew142]

There was an episode of Dr Who (5th doctor? 6th doctor?) set in WW2 where the village priest couldn't hold off the undead because he'd lost his faith due to the horrors of war.

Later in that episode a Russian soldier actually succeeded in turning undead using a hammer and sickle emblem, because of his faith in the Communist Party.

Some of the posters on this forum might be able to achieve the same result by brandishing the 4th edition players handbook

I have to let my inner whovian out.

The episode was Curse of Fenric, and it starred the 7th doctor. One of the coolest things about it IMO was that the village priest was able to turn the vampires at first, but they subverted his faith by talking to him. Once it faltered, they were fell on him in a heartbeat. Later, the doctor's companion (Ace) was holding the head vampire at bay with her faith in the doctor. In order for his plan to succeed, the doctor had to undermine her faith in him, so the vampire lord could get by her. IMO, it is one of the best serials ever written for Doctor Who.

Back to 4e D&D, it looks (from the extremely small taste we've been given) that the designers may have fixed turning in 4e. It no longer dusts undead or sends them fleeing, but holds them at bay. So long as it doesn't make them helpless against attackers, I will be happy.

I'm okay with the ability being limited to clerics in D&D. In the movies and literature, the main characters can often hold the undead at bay with their faith. In D&D 4e, this can likely be modeled using the clerical training (or multiclassing) rules.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Hmm... That could actually be neat in say a one-time game where everyone has cleric training and they are dealing with tons of undead and while fending them off normally they also have to contend with keeping their turning undead ability going despite their moral lowering, over-exhaustion, etc.

 

[kennew142]

Hmm... That could actually be neat in say a one-time game where everyone has cleric training and they are dealing with tons of undead and while fending them off normally they also have to contend with keeping their turning undead ability going despite their moral lowering, over-exhaustion, etc.

In history, many folks had some clerical training. It is also extremely common in Katherine Kurtz's dernyi series. It is extremely common in our local Arcanis games as well. It's too bad that the only real non-RP effect in 3e (at higher levels, at least) is to allow the use of wands.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well then hopefully Cleric Training will work well into that then

 

[Felon]

Turning undead should have been a spell from the start. There's no excuse for it not having been.

D&D Design Sin Number 47: Creating a new power/resource mechanic for a class that already has one that could have done the job. See the Elocater for reference. The class already has power points. It gains Psionic Teleport and Psionic Plane Shift as bonus powers. But it gains Psionic Dimensional Door as a once per day ability? Why, I ask you, why?!?

I'll see your Elocator and raise you an Arcane Trickster. Why create a x/day Ranged Legerdemain instead of allowing an Arcane Trickster to Open Locks, Pick Pockets and Disarm Traps through the use of Mage Hand? At higher levels they might even be allowed to create mage hands with thieves' tools incorporated.

If by "from the start" we're talking about the earliest editions of D&D's, it's easy to say a lot of things should have been different from the start. Hindsight's a great thing.

In 1e, spellcasters had very few spells alotted per day. If you wanted them to have an ability that was reliably available, making turn undead into a spell didn't accomplish that. In fact, it doesn't accomplish that in 3e either. It gets lumped in with hundreds of others spells that a cleric has to cherry-pick.

In the elocator and arcane trickster's case, it's rather the opposite. They don't want the player tapping into the existing power source. They don't elocators getting more than one D-door or arcane tricksters doing ranged ledgerdemain all the time thanks to some magic item that can cast mage hand at will.

I don't see the need for turning except for thematic purposes. Considering the number of undead effectively immune to turning, it might as well be a monster trait rather than a class ability.