TWF Tweak

[Yunru]

...
Can't think of a way to make it about food.
...
Damn.


Anyway, running some basic numbers, changing the Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter?) Fighting Style from adding +mod, to applying Extra Attack to it seems to make it actually viable.


Compare:
A Greatsword with GWF deals 2d6 damage, rerolling the first 1 or 2. That's an average of 8.33333.
A Shortsword with TWF would deal 1d6 damage, twice. That's an average of 7, and it uses your Bonus action.


Throw in Extra Attack, and we get 16.6666666, vs 14.
But Fighters can get three attacks: 25 vs 21.
Or even four: 33.33333 vs 28.


Of course, the Greatsword does more evenly distrubted damage, while the Shortswords are heavily weighted towards the average.


Oh and we can't forget Hex (or the whimpy Hunter's Mark) now can we?
No Extra Attack: 11.83333, vs 10.5
Extra Attack 1: 23.6666, vs 28
Extra Attack 2: 35.5, vs 42
Extra Attack 3: 47.3333, vs 56
Of course, this isn't accounting for the fact that Hex/Hunter's Mark can't be used in the same turn as you would benefit from TWF, which actually brings the numbers more in line (on those rounds TWF's output is halved).


Thoughts?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I let either the fighting style or the feat add the extra attack to the Attack action. So a fighter who Action Surges would get 2 offhand attacks, a ranger can use Hunter's Mark and his offhand in the same round, etc. The rogue took it to let her dual wield and still get a Cunning Action. No balance issues so far.

 

[Fion]

My fix for Two Weapon Fighting.

Martial Dilettante
You've learned to use one-handed weapons to their full advantage, blending skill and momentum to empower your strikes. You gain the following benefits.
• On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a one-handed melee weapon or drop a creature to 0 hit points, you can make one melee weapon attack against an adjacent target using your reaction.
• Before you make a melee weapon attack with a one-handed weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -2 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +4 to the attack's damage.

 

[Zalabim]

My latest tinker with fixing TWF is to change the fighting style to add your off-hand damage die to your main hand weapon hits for any attack that qualifies to TWF. You can still make the extra attack with your off-hand as a bonus action without the bonus stat to damage. Dual Wielder has to be addressed separately, but my simple suggestion was just giving it +1 Str or Dex, since it isn't worth +2. Changing the fighting style would give more to work with on the feat though, so I might give that some design thought.

 

[WiredNavi]

Am I confused, or is the initial appraisal (the average 8.33 damage vs. 7 damage) being made with GWF fighting style, but not counting the bonus from TWF fighting style?

Assuming a +3 ability score:

Greatsword without GWF: 2d6+3 = 10
Shortswords without TWF: 2d6+3 = 10
Greatsword with GWF: 2d6+3 reroll 1s and 2s = 11.33
Shortswords with TWF: 2d6+6 = 13

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Weathercock]

My latest tinker with fixing TWF is to change the fighting style to add your off-hand damage die to your main hand weapon hits for any attack that qualifies to TWF. You can still make the extra attack with your off-hand as a bonus action without the bonus stat to damage. Dual Wielder has to be addressed separately, but my simple suggestion was just giving it +1 Str or Dex, since it isn't worth +2. Changing the fighting style would give more to work with on the feat though, so I might give that some design thought.

This is the solution that I'd also prefer, but with a slightly different implementation.

1. Keep the standard rules and fighting style for TWF as they are now.
2. Give the Dual Wielder feat the ability to add the extra weapon die to all of your attacks (in addition to the current features)

Giving TWF everything at once ends up making TWF too strong at early levels. Adding the feat cost makes progression far more reasonable and gives the Dual Wielder feat a reason to exist.

I'll run some numbers in a sec...

UPDATE:

Fighter 0-resource DPR with improved TWF, 2 longswords/rapiers


level 5 v AC 13: 30.6/39.2 (Str/Dex +4) <-- 91.8/117.6 per 3 rounds, 214.2/274.4 per 7 rounds
level 11 v AC 15: 43.8/56.0 (Str/Dex +5) <-- 131.4/168.0 per 3 rounds, 306.6/392.1 per 7 rounds
level 20 v AC 19: 47.8/65.8 (Str/Dex +5) <-- 143.3/197.4 per 3 rounds, 334.3/460.7 per 7 rounds


Fighter 0-resource DPR with great weapon mastery (Greatsword)


level 5 v AC 13: 24.3/38.4 (Str +4) <-- 72.9/115.1 per 3 rounds, 170.1/268.6 per 7 rounds
level 11 v AC 15: 38.0/59.8 (Str +5) <-- 113.9/179.3 per 3 rounds, 265.7/418.4 per 7 rounds
level 14 v AC 18: 30.6/51.4 (Str +5) <-- 91.9/154.2 per 3 rounds, 214.4/359.8 per 7 rounds
level 20 v AC 19: 40.8/68.3 (Str +5) <-- 122.4/204.8 per 3 rounds, 285.6/477.8 per 7 rounds


Fighter 0-resource DPR with great weapon mastery (Halberd), polearm godmode


Level 5 v AC 13: 25.1/39.6 (Str +3) <-- 75.3/118.8 per 3 rounds, 175.7/277.2 per 7 rounds
Level 11 v AC 15: 42.4/64.1 (Str +5) <-- 127.2/192.3 per 3 rounds, 296.7/448.7 per 7 rounds
Level 20 v AC 19: 43.1/69.4 (Str +5) <-- 129.3/208.2 per 3 rounds, 301.7/485.8 per 7 rounds



Now the numbers start to look a bit more comparable. The problem here is that they might actually be a bit too high. Keep in mind, the advantages of TWF also include +1 AC, as well as the ability to use dexterity as an attacking stat, benefits that can't be reflected here. For that reason, you could even consider doing away with the bonus action attack entirely, or making it conditional, like GWM.