Twin Strike or similar powers & target selection

[bganon]

I go with the "choose both targets, then roll the attacks" version. But I have to admit, this is mainly because I think Twin Strike is already so good that it doesn't need the extra boost in usefulness.

IME, overkill happens rarely enough that the player doesn't mind... of course this player also kind of relishes a bit of overkill sometimes.

 

[babinro]

I think all attacks should be resolved separately. It seems unlikely that both arrows are being fired simultaneously and as such the fact that the archer would have to fire again would mean they could decide who they want to target next.

 

[DracoSuave]

The Target line precedes the Attack line. This means, according to the PHB2, that the Target line is resolved before the Attack line.

Now, if you're choosing a target, attacking, then choosing another, you're not resolving the power's lines in order. No part of the power suggests you may do this, so according to PHB2, you select the number of targets before you start rolling dice.

 

[KarinsDad]

The Target line precedes the Attack line. This means, according to the PHB2, that the Target line is resolved before the Attack line.

Now, if you're choosing a target, attacking, then choosing another, you're not resolving the power's lines in order. No part of the power suggests you may do this, so according to PHB2, you select the number of targets before you start rolling dice.

If you are referring to:

The order of information in a power description is a general guide to the sequence in which the power’s various effects occur. For example, an “Effect” entry might appear above attack information in a power description to indicate that something happens before you make the attack.

then your statement here is inaccurate. The Target is not an effect, so it is not affected by the sequence effect rules. This rule is really referring to Hit: versus Effect: lines where both are effects.

If you are referring to some other rule in PHB 2, then please quote it.

 

[DracoSuave]

If you are referring to:



then your statement here is inaccurate. The Target is not an effect, so it is not affected by the sequence effect rules. This rule is really referring to Hit: versus Effect: lines where both are effects.

If you are referring to some other rule in PHB 2, then please quote it.

That rule is not solely refering to 'Effect' lines. That's simply an example.

However, the PHB states that ranged attacks that effect multiple targets each have their own distinct attack and damage roll.

However, it does not mention that targets are selected in the same sequence. Therefore, while the rules for Melee and Ranged attacks supercede the rules for the resolution of steps 3, 4, and 5 of Making an Attack, it does not contradict step 2 and therefore does not supercede that.

Further, step 2 is pretty explicit:

'Choose targets for the attack.'

Please do note the plural there.

 

[KarinsDad]

That rule is not solely refering to 'Effect' lines. That's simply an example.

The order of information in a power description is a general guide to the sequence in which the power’s various effects occur.

Targeting is still not an effect. Being targeted by an enemy does not affect the enemy. Hitting the enemy or placing an effect on them does, but not targeting. This rule is inapplicable to targeting.

However, the PHB states that ranged attacks that effect multiple targets each have their own distinct attack and damage roll.

Not applicable to Twin Strike melee. And, not applicable to targeting rules.

However, it does not mention that targets are selected in the same sequence. Therefore, while the rules for Melee and Ranged attacks supercede the rules for the resolution of steps 3, 4, and 5 of Making an Attack, it does not contradict step 2 and therefore does not supercede that.

Further, step 2 is pretty explicit:

'Choose targets for the attack.'

Please do note the plural there.

This, however, is more explicit. I don't disagree with your interpretation, I just disagreed that the rule in PHB 2 was a valid reason for that interpretation.

 

[Dredly]

If I can tag a follow up question on that...

if you are currently marked, "must attack specific target or marker gets a basic melee on you" and you perform 2 separate attacks, one targeting the marker and the other targeting a different person, do you get hit by the marker for attacking someone else?

I was playing with Iron tooth (Keep of Shadowfell campaign) who is allowed to make 2 basic melee attack and everytime I did the PC that marked me tried making an attack because I launched an attack that wasn't at him

 

[Samir]

That rule is not solely refering to 'Effect' lines. That's simply an example.

However, the PHB states that ranged attacks that effect multiple targets each have their own distinct attack and damage roll.

However, it does not mention that targets are selected in the same sequence. Therefore, while the rules for Melee and Ranged attacks supercede the rules for the resolution of steps 3, 4, and 5 of Making an Attack, it does not contradict step 2 and therefore does not supercede that.

I'm not sure there's any supercession at all. This isn't general vs. specific, this is two general rules that aren't even in contradiction.

The PHB states that (pg. 270):

Targeted: Melee attacks target individuals. A melee
attack against multiple enemies consists of separate
attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.

...

Targeted: Ranged attacks target individuals.
A ranged attack against multiple enemies consists of
separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and
damage roll.

Thus, Twin Strike is two separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.

The PHB also tells us how to make these attacks (pg. 269):

MAKING AN ATTACK
All attacks follow the same basic process:
1. Choose the attack you’ll use. Each attack has an
attack type.
2. Choose targets for the attack (page 272). Each target
must be within range (page 273). Check whether
you can see and target your enemies (page 273).
3. Make an attack roll (page 273).
4. Compare your attack roll to the target’s defense
(page 274) to determine whether you hit or miss.
5. Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276).

So for each attack in Twin Strike, you choose a target, make an attack roll, and deal damage. You choose your target at the start of each attack, not at the immediate moment you use the power.

If you chose your target at the immediate moment you use the power, then attack powers that involve movement prior to the attack would not work if you weren't in range to start with, even if the power could move you in range before you made the attack.

Further, step 2 is pretty explicit:

'Choose targets for the attack.'

Please do note the plural there.

I'm not sure this affects anything, RAW. You choose the targets for each of the two Twin Strike attacks when you are making each attack--of course, under normal circumstances, each attack only hits one target. The plural just seems to allow for the circumstance if each of the two attacks hits multiple targets.

CS responses in the past have favored the "choose targets one by one" interpretation, FWIW (which isn't much). I think this will be a good Twitter question for this Thursday.

 

[abyssaldeath]

If I can tag a follow up question on that...

if you are currently marked, "must attack specific target or marker gets a basic melee on you" and you perform 2 separate attacks, one targeting the marker and the other targeting a different person, do you get hit by the marker for attacking someone else?

I was playing with Iron tooth (Keep of Shadowfell campaign) who is allowed to make 2 basic melee attack and everytime I did the PC that marked me tried making an attack because I launched an attack that wasn't at him

Melee and ranged attacks that attack multiple times consist of separate attacks. So Iron Tooth would have triggered the mark for not attacking the PC that marked him.

 

[Dredly]

Melee and ranged attacks that attack multiple times consist of separate attacks. So Iron Tooth would have triggered the mark for not attacking the PC that marked him.

so then in reality I should have been getting hit every time I did that attack. good to know.

Is it possible to mark the same enemy twice? ie: I have 2 fighters, can they both mark the same enemy?