Twin Strike or similar powers & target selection

[Mengu]

I mean if you think the power actually works that way, great.
If you don't, then you're not doing them or your game any favours.

After further thought and some discussion with my players and our other DM's, I'm changing my stance on this (basically switching to what I think is RAW, regardless of what RAI may have been at some point). You pick the targets, and make the attack rolls simultaneously.

I realize (after one of my players pointed out), previously I was treating Twin Strike like Twin Panthers, which it clearly isn't.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Now, if these attacks are individually resolved, why would the targeting portion of each attack not be individually resolved?

There's a difference between individually resolved and sequentially resolved. You're arguing for sequential resolution vs. parallel resolution. Indeed, the same question asked in opposite to your stance is the same. Why does one possible interrupt of one of the two attacks affect the other attack? If I'm the ranger and decide to hit one enemy with one sword and a second enemy with another, why does some ability of the first enemy interrupt the second attack? The only way it could interrupt it is if you rule that Twin Strike is sequential, which presupposes that you identify who you attack first and with what.

And that also makes Hunter's Quarry into a paradox. For example, you attack the first guy and resolve the attack (i.e. roll damage). Then you attack the second guy and resolve the attack, hitting. Then you decide to apply HQ on the first attack (assume 11th+ level for multiple quarries), killing him, but thus triggering some other ability, such as making you blind. Now, you actually miss the second guy so you have to refactor that.

What a huge mess!

 

[luide]

Samir argues that the word attack in following quote (PHB 269) refers to Attack: line in power.

Making an Attack
All attacks follow same basic process:
1. Choose the attack you'll use. Each attack has an attack type.
2. Choose targets for the attack (page 272). Each target must be within range (page 273). Check whether you can see and target your enemies (page 273).
3. Make an attack roll (page 273)
4. Compare your attack roll to target's defense (page 274) to determine whether you hit or miss.
5. Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276)

Which would resolve to following line in power

Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee; main weapon and off-hand weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged), two attacks

Personally I think it can only mean whole power used for attack, which in this case would resolve to following parts:

Twin Strike
At-Will

Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon

This interpretation has added bonus of fulfilling the "Each attack has an attack type." portion of the rule quote above, Melee or Ranged in this case.

It's also far more logical way to parse powers.
I'll give you rundown how Twin Strike (quoted below) should be read/resolved in my opinion as per PHB 269:

Twin Strike
At-Will

Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon.
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee; main weapon and off-hand weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged), two attacks
Hit: 1[W] damage per attack.
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.

1. Choose the attack you'll use. Each attack has an attack type.

Twin Strike
At-Will

Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon.

2. Choose targets for the attack (page 272). Each target must be within range (page 273). Check whether you can see and target your enemies (page 273).

Targets: One or two creatures

3. Make an attack roll (page 273)

Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee; main weapon and off-hand weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged), two attacks

4. Compare your attack roll to target's defense (page 274) to determine whether you hit or miss.

Technically the vs. AC part of the Attack: line is resolved here.

5. Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276)

Hit: 1[W] damage per attack.
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.


In-play example with Ranger:
1. Ranger decides to use Twin Strike. (Requirements for power are fullfilled.)
2a. Ranger picks his targets, Orc A and Orc B. (Targets are valid.)
2b. Ranger picks Orc A as his only target. (Target is valid)
3. Ranger makes two attack rolls. (IMO this is what the "two attacks" in Twin Strike really means). His total is 21 for first roll (Orc A) and 19 for second roll (a:Orc B, b: Orc A again)
4. Poor Orcs have only AC of 18, both attacks hit.
5. Ranger rolls damage separately for attacks. Damage from both attacks is taken simultaneusly.

 

[bardolph]

I'm convinced that RAW requires both targets to be declared before rolling, but fluff-wise, it doesn't make sense for an archery ranger, so I'd rule that an archer can attack sequentially.

 

[Droogie128]

I'm convinced that RAW requires both targets to be declared before rolling, but fluff-wise, it doesn't make sense for an archery ranger, so I'd rule that an archer can attack sequentially.

RAW is that you choose your target before you make an attack. Twin Strike is 2 completely seperate attacks. So RAW would support being able to switch. Choose target, attack... Choose target, attack. Keyword there, SEPERATE attacks. TWO attacks. Choose targets before making an attack. I don't see where the confusion lies here really.

 

[bardolph]

RAW is that you choose your target before you make an attack. Twin Strike is 2 completely seperate attacks. So RAW would support being able to switch. Choose target, attack... Choose target, attack. Keyword there, SEPERATE attacks. TWO attacks. Choose targets before making an attack. I don't see where the confusion lies here really.

Heh. Okay, I'm convinced the other way.

 

[luide]

RAW is that you choose your target before you make an attack. Twin Strike is 2 completely seperate attacks.

By RAW, Twin Strike is only one attack in regards to PHB 269 in how attacks are resolved. It has two completely separate attack rolls which in 4e are also referred as attacks. In fact, multitude of things are referred as "attacks" in 4e which is why we're having this discussion.

I still think that the only sane way to interpret the "two attacks" in the Twin Strike power is to assume they meant two attack rolls.
Doing anything else makes power resolution completely illogical, because the "two attacks" are only mentioned at Attack: line and that line shouldn't be taken into consideration before target resolution is completely done. Which is done only after choosing the attack...

 

[Regicide]

I love how, almost 2 years later, we still don't know how the most commonly used power works.

 

[bganon]

I love how, in the end, it hardly makes any difference.

 

[Jack99]

I love how, almost 2 years later, we still don't know how the most commonly used power works.

We? Speak for yourself.