D&D (2024) Uncommon items - actually common?

[Maxperson]

Same reason why you don't buy vegetables by the square foot of farmland and spend significantly more buying them at a restaurant than a grocery store. The value of a gem is based on clarity and cut. The value of gem dust is based on volume. I linked to a site that sells diamond dust earlier as an example∆ .

∆just over a pound worth of dust was around 30$. But a 30$diamond is something very different

I'm not buying vegetables. I'm playing D&D. D&D uses GP to measure spell component amounts. You can change it, but I'd rather keep it simple than complicate things by needing every gem type in ounces of dust with a value attached to it, and then every type of incense in sticks with prices attached to it, and... You'd need a several hundred page book just to deal with all the different possible components and values.

Why get that complicated when 25gp of incense is sufficient to let you get the exact volume of incense, regardless of local pricing?

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not buying vegetables. I'm playing D&D. D&D uses GP to measure spell component amounts. You can change it, but I'd rather keep it simple than complicate things by needing every gem type in ounces of dust with a value attached to it, and then every type of incense in sticks with prices attached to it, and... You'd need a several hundred page book just to deal with all the different possible components and values.

Why get that complicated when 25gp of incense is sufficient to let you get the exact volume of incense, regardless of local pricing?

You've gone from why is it important to it can't be important for any reason because it's currently how it is ... Since you seem to be calling upon tradition as the first last and only matter of concern, d&d uses pounds to measure volume not gp.

 

[kigmatzomat]

As a player, changing from gp-measured amounts doesn't make a material improvement.

"So I need to have the jeweler not only value the gem, but also give me its rubiosity value. Then I decide if I can burn this gem in my spell or sell it at a discount as "non-magical grade" to buy a higher rubiosity gem. But if the rubiosity is too high, I'd be a fool not to sell this gem and get a gem that is the exact size and have some profit. But then I have to keep in mind the markdown of selling a gem...."

Yeah, even as someone who likes to bring economics into a game, that's trash.

And a GM who likes to bring economics into a game, if I feel the need to maintain versimiltude of "demand surge pricing", I can do so by adding a "service fee". "The ruby is 50gp, but the acquisition, stocking, and delivery fee is another 125gp." Hooray, the bill comes with a complimentary "detect evil"!

But to be honest that should only exist where there is an unusual demand for rubies (maybe a casters' convention? Religious ceremony? Birthday of a princess who loves rubies?). If they don't exist in a large community it's likely because there are no casters who justify anyone having them on hand and/or that the region is so poor/devastated that rubies are victims of Maslow's hierarchy of needs where people have already hocked all their goods of value to buy goods from abroad.

So...gp is fine.

 

[tetrasodium]

As a player, changing from gp-measured amounts doesn't make a material improvement.

"So I need to have the jeweler not only value the gem, but also give me its rubiosity value. Then I decide if I can burn this gem in my spell or sell it at a discount as "non-magical grade" to buy a higher rubiosity gem. But if the rubiosity is too high, I'd be a fool not to sell this gem and get a gem that is the exact size and have some profit. But then I have to keep in mind the markdown of selling a gem...."

Yeah, even as someone who likes to bring economics into a game, that's trash.

And a GM who likes to bring economics into a game, if I feel the need to maintain versimiltude of "demand surge pricing", I can do so by adding a "service fee". "The ruby is 50gp, but the acquisition, stocking, and delivery fee is another 125gp." Hooray, the bill comes with a complimentary "detect evil"!

But to be honest that should only exist where there is an unusual demand for rubies (maybe a casters' convention? Religious ceremony? Birthday of a princess who loves rubies?). If they don't exist in a large community it's likely because there are no casters who justify anyone having them on hand and/or that the region is so poor/devastated that rubies are victims of Maslow's hierarchy of needs where people have already hocked all their goods of value to buy goods from abroad.

So...gp is fine.

I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to support with all of this because it goes all over the place seeming to talk down at both sides and does so while failing to even provide a solid credible example scenario of reasons relevant to actual play. Here are three simple ones.

• Players are in eberron and magic is more readily available or mining is more advanced on top of the fact that a freaking mega Corp trade cartel like one of the dragonmarked houses tends to buy them up... And the players are not well liked by that house on a good day.
  • All of those should impact the availability and price of diamond dust... Except that it doesn't matter to actual play because the required amount is based on price rather than volume.
• .the players are in a dark sun game and diamond dust is less available because civilization collapsed while the gods are dead or fleeing the sphere and arcane magic is hated enough that it's hard to find someone who might even be willing to sell it
  • Again all of those are issues that can be expected to dramatically impact play and none of them matter because it's based on the cost of diamond dust rather than something like pounds or some other in world standardized unit
• the players are in ravenloft and for whatever reason The Dark Powers have decided to twist the screws.
  • They are literally the equivalent of an author/director/GM using level power within ravenloft yet the only option is a binary yes/no it's (not) available because if players can buy any amount it only needs to be worth the spell's needed XXXgp of it

Maybe try a better less contrived example and it will be less confusing

 

[Maxperson]

You've gone from why is it important to it can't be important for any reason because it's currently how it is ... Since you seem to be calling upon tradition as the first last and only matter of concern, d&d uses pounds to measure volume not gp.

No. I didn't say anything about tradition and gave you the very real reason it exists. Simplicity. Needing a hundred+ page book to price every gem, herb, incense, etc. that can be used as a component by volume is needlessly over complicating the game.

If you want to write all that up for your game, go for it. I wouldn't expect D&D to ever change like that, though. The last time anything like that was around that I know of was the 3e UA with the alternative component list. Before that 1e had the special properties of gems. Even then, though, it wasn't nearly as in depth as you are asking for here.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to support with all of this because it goes all over the place seeming to talk down at both sides and does so while failing to even provide a solid credible example scenario of reasons relevant to actual play. Here are three simple ones.

I understood what he was saying just fine.

• Players are in eberron and magic is more readily available or mining is more advanced on top of the fact that a freaking mega Corp trade cartel like one of the dragonmarked houses tends to buy them up... And the players are not well liked by that house on a good day.
  • All of those should impact the availability and price of diamond dust... Except that it doesn't matter to actual play because the required amount is based on price rather than volume.

Sure. So that 50gp of diamond dust now costs the PC 100gp, but is still 50gp of diamond dust for the purposes of the spell.

• .the players are in a dark sun game and diamond dust is less available because civilization collapsed while the gods are dead or fleeing the sphere and arcane magic is hated enough that it's hard to find someone who might even be willing to sell it
  • Again all of those are issues that can be expected to dramatically impact play and none of them matter because it's based on the cost of diamond dust rather than something like pounds or some other in world standardized unit

Good example, but it doesn't show any need for ounces of diamond dust. It's so rare that it will cost the PC 10000 CP for 50gp worth of diamond dust for purposes of the spell.

• the players are in ravenloft and for whatever reason The Dark Powers have decided to twist the screws.
  • They are literally the equivalent of an author/director/GM using level power within ravenloft yet the only option is a binary yes/no it's (not) available because if players can buy any amount it only needs to be worth the spell's needed XXXgp of it

If it's not available, they can't get it for the spell and don't need any sort of volume amount. If they can get it, then it will cost them Y GP for 50 GP of diamond dust for the purposes of the spell. There's still no need for a volume of dust.

 

[Ancalagon]

Why? You can sell both at pretty much any large town or city, and small towns aren't likely to buy either. 50g is 50g is 50g.

I am amused how the idea of "D&D is not an economic simulator!" is going around (I agree with this idea btw)... and at the same time some are asking fundamental economic questions, perhaps even without realizing it!

What your asking about essentially is, "what is money".

"50g is 50g is 50g" that is an essential aspect of money - it's fungible. What @tetrasodium is pointing out is that ruby dust should have similar properties - 50 gp of dust from seller A is more or less the same as 50 gp of dust from seller B. Gem dust could be a form of currency. At the very least, a major category of buyers of ruby dust (spellcasters!) are not that picky about their dust.

(I'm going to skip what else would need to happen for it to be a currency in your game because I don't want this to be a lecture ha, but I can elaborate if you wish)

A 50 gp gem can't really be currency, because each gem is unique. It might be worth 50 gp, but it could be completely wrong for your needs (maybe it's the wrong color?)

 

[Maxperson]

I am amused how the idea of "D&D is not an economic simulator!" is going around (I agree with this idea btw)... and at the same time some are asking fundamental economic questions, perhaps even without realizing it!

What your asking about essentially is, "what is money".

"50g is 50g is 50g" that is an essential aspect of money - it's fungible. What @tetrasodium is pointing out is that ruby dust should have similar properties - 50 gp of dust from seller A is more or less the same as 50 gp of dust from seller B. Gem dust could be a form of currency.

What I am saying is that it already is. I have had 1000gp of diamond dust found in alchemical/wizard labs before. It can be sold or traded the same as a 1000gp diamond could. It would be traded for more at place A, the same at place B, or less at place C depending on local economics.

I don't need to know how many ounces it is. Why? Because if they want to split and only sell 300gp worth, they can! They just do it and have 700gp worth left over. That 700 would not be traded for more at place A, the same at place B, or less at place C depending on local economics.

At no point is it ever necessary for me to know that diamond is 200gp an ounce. That's just an unnecessary complication.

A 50 gp gem can't really be currency, because each gem is unique. It might be worth 50 gp, but it could be completely wrong for your needs (maybe it's the wrong color?)

You can find someone to buy it in a large town or city. If it's not right for A, then it's right for B. And of course a jeweler won't care since he can sell it and/or set it into something and sell it.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

At no point is it ever necessary for me to know that diamond is 200gp an ounce. That's just an unnecessary complication.

While I agree with most of your points, technically, if we go this way, we don't need to know it's ruby dust or diamond dust, or rare incense. It's a 50 gp tax to cast the spell. Why did they mention ruby dust here, a diamond worth 50 gp there? Mostly for flavor, much like sulphur and guano are needed for a fireball. And this is the exact reason, I, at least, would like to know if

a) 50 gp of diamond dust is 20 kg or a pinch, so I can picture my wizard sparkling it over the target of the spell or using a shovel to dig it out
b) if it's a tiny diamond I need to resurrect my dead fighter friend who arbitrated toward "dying from a 200 feet fall" and against "spend more time at the library, get a level of a proper class and learn Feather Fall", or a huge, fist-sized diamond.

If they put enough flavor to say you need diamond for resurrection, not jade, why can't they say how much?

Also, good luck explaining the players that no, they can't crush their 1,000 gp diamond into 50 gp of diamond dust. Or, maybe they can, because maybe the Faerun people don't use diamond for engagement rings, and don't have any other use for them outside of spellcasting that would drive the price up for a big diamond, anymore that we don't value a big flintstone over a smaller flintstone, or curiosity value (I surmise the world's longest cucumber must be worth more than four regular cucumbers, but probably not by a lot...)

 

[Maxperson]

While I agree with most of your points, technically, if we go this way, we don't need to know it's ruby dust or diamond dust, or rare incense. It's a 50 gp tax to cast the spell. Why did they mention ruby dust here, a diamond worth 50 gp there? Mostly for flavor, much like sulphur and guano are needed for a fireball. And this is the exact reason, I, at least, would like to know if

I mean, that's basically what it is. It's flavor. Diamond for this, ruby for that, some iron filings for that thing over there.

a) 50 gp of diamond dust is 20 kg or a pinch, so I can picture my wizard sparkling it over the target of the spell or using a shovel to dig it out
b) if it's a tiny diamond I need to resurrect my dead fighter friend who arbitrated toward "dying from a 200 feet fall" and against "spend more time at the library, get a level of a proper class and learn Feather Fall", or a huge, fist-sized diamond.

If they put enough flavor to say you need diamond for resurrection, not jade, why can't they say how much?

Again, it causes needless complication. It also uses up needless space in the book.

Also, good luck explaining the players that no, they can't crush their 1,000 gp diamond into 50 gp of diamond dust. Or, maybe they can, because maybe the Faerun people don't use diamond for engagement rings, and don't have any other use for them outside of spellcasting that would drive the price up for a big diamond, anymore that we don't value a big flintstone over a smaller flintstone, or curiosity value (I surmise the world's longest cucumber must be worth more than four regular cucumbers, but probably not by a lot...)

I mean, if they have the means to crush it into dust and not shards, why couldn't they do it. Players have had their characters do that in my game.

P.S. The smaller flintstone is a rubble and they have a bambam to crush diamonds into dust with his club.