Vampiric Touch, Spellstoring, and thrown weapon...

[Camarath]

From this we see that the free action of casting the spell very definitely occurs after the end of the attack action, because the creature has already taken damage - at which point the person who threw the weapon is no longer the wielder according to you. If they are no longer the wielder, they can't choose to trigger the spell.

That is unless one takes immediately to mean with no time intervening. In which case one could conclude that the the weapon casts the spell at the same time as it successfully deals damage to its target.

 

[Caliban]

Double post.

 

[Camarath]

False assumption. You stop wielding the weapon the moment it leaves your hands. You stop using the weapon the moment it leaves your hands.

Wield can also mean to exercise (power, control, influence, etc.). A thrown weapon is not free of a character's influence untill after it has hit something. In that way at least a character can be considered to be weilding a thrown object as long as the object is under the control the forces imparted to it by the character. Also I do not believe that one must use one's hands to wield some thing. For example IMO you would still gain a negative level from using anarchic armor spikes if you are lawful even though one's hands are not used to wield them.

 

[Caliban]

Wield can also mean to exercise (power, control, influence, etc.). A thrown weapon is not free of a character's influence untill after it has hit something. In that way at least a character can be considered to be weilding a thrown object as long as the object is under the control the forces imparted to it by the character.
[/b]

Semantics. It's not under your control once it's left your hands, thus you are no longer wielding it.

Why try to make it more complicated than it needs to be?

Also I do not believe that one must use one's hands to wield some thing. For example IMO you would still gain a negative level from using anarchic armor spikes if you are lawful even though one's hands are not used to wield them.

Yes, because you wield armor spikes by wearing the armor. Once you take the armor off you are no longer wielding them.

 

[Camarath]

Semantics.

Ahh the much belittled the study of meanings. I can see how you would not want to bring that into this.

It's not under your control once it's left your hands, thus you are no longer wielding it.

It is not under your active control but it is still acting according to the forces you imparted to it and is thus still acting under your direction.

Why try to make it more complicated than it needs to be?

Personally I don't think my way of looking at this is any more or less compilcated that your way.

Yes, because you wield armor spikes by wearing the armor. Once you take the armor off you are no longer wielding them.

I thought that people were asserting that to wield something meant to handle (i.e. use one's hands to control or utilize) it. IMO as longer as object is acting under you direction you should be considered to be wileding it. And if a thrown weapon is not acting under the direction of the character who threw it then who's direction is it acting under?

 

[Snipehunt]

It depends upon the circumstances. However since you cannot normally activate a wand in the middle of an attack - the point is moot. Activating a wand is at least a standard action, so this can never come up. If for some reason you had a wand that could be activated as a free action in the middle of an attack resolution - that would work just fine.

-Frank

Really?

None of the language has changed since 3.0, and in 3.0 it certainly would be legal for a wizard to caste haste, then next round throw a wand and activate it - if that ridiculous maneuver was allowed. Plenty of actions available. Let's not even get into the free action for dropping an item.

And, of course, the mage could just shapechange into a choker.

You allow that?

 

[FrankTrollman]

None of the language has changed since 3.0, and in 3.0 it certainly would be legal for a wizard to caste haste, then next round throw a wand and activate it - if that ridiculous maneuver was allowed.

I don't see how Haste allowed you to take a partial action during your attack - the extra partial action specifically came "before or after" your regular action. Thus, it was either too early or too late to activate the wand.

Not that it makes any difference of course, as wands generate the spell from you, not from themselves. When you activate a Cure Light Wounds spell you still have to put your hand on the recipient - not the tip of the wand. At least, that's how it works game mechanically - I personally usually have people tap each other with wands as I think it "feels" better.

You wouldn't have to "get an extra action". There's lots of ways to do that. You'd have to be able to activate an item during your attack. You can actually do that, of course. If you had a glove of storing that was holding a shield of fire resistance you could throw an explosive and activate the glove before the explosive went off (thus, protecting you). But I'm just not seeing where you are having conceptual problems.

-Frank

 

[KarinsDad]

Wow!! A tough debate. Hard to know which side to come in on.


First off,

Hi Caliban.

Long time no talk with. How are you doing?


Ok, back to rules.

With regard to "wield", I do think that you wield the weapon up to and including the point in time where you actually do damage (or miss). The reasons for that are:

a) you get your strength bonus if you hit, even after the weapon has left your hand
b) you get the enhancement bonuses of the weapon if you hit, even after it has left your hand.

If it is not being wielded (i.e. used) by you, then it would not get YOUR strength bonus. If the item was not being "use activated" at the time of the hit, then it would not get the enhancement bonus for damage.

In addition, I think it is clear from the general wording of Weapon Special Abilities and the wording of Spell Store specifically, that you not only get your enhancement bonus of the weapon, but you also get to use all special abilities of a weapon when you use it (just like a thrown flaming dagger) and in this case, you can also have the weapon cast the spell (similar to a dancing weapon which is not in your hand, but you get to use its special abilities).

The word in that description that allows it is the word "immediately". Yes, it is a free action, but it is an immediate free action explicitly called out by the definition of the special ability. The special ability does not state that any time the user wields the weapon or any time the weapon is in the users hand, etc. Rather it states:

"Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires."

This is not very debatable. Regardless of whether OTHER items like Chaos weapons give this ability or not to the wielder, THIS item does. The capabilities of the Chaos special ability is non-sequitor to any discussion of the capabilities of the Store Spell special ability. Just like the capabilities of the Store Spell special ability is non-sequitor to any discussion of the capabilities of the Chaos special ability.



Now, having said all of that, it is also quite clear that Vampiric Touch in this item does not give the hit points to the wielder of the weapon. He is not casting the spell. The weapon is. The special ability description is quite clear on that. In fact, the weapon gets the temporary hit points which makes the weapon more difficult to destroy (since weapons have both hardness and hit points). Granted, whether the weapon gets temporary hit points is debatable since the temporary hit point section of the PHB explicitly discuss characters and does not discuss inanimate objects. But to me, hit points are hit points.


Now, people can feel free to argue it, but I would suggest that you cite rules if you want to sway anyone. The rules I am citing are those that are explicitly known (i.e. wielders strength applies after the weapon leaves his hand, hence, he is wielding it at least until it either misses or does damage and the spell store item can be used by the wielder but the weapon itself casts the spell).

 

[Caliban]

Wow!! A tough debate. Hard to know which side to come in on.


First off,

Hi Caliban.

Long time no talk with. How are you doing?
[/b]

Not to bad overall, good to see you are still posting. Missed you around here.

Ok, back to rules.

With regard to "wield", I do think that you wield the weapon up to and including the point in time where you actually do damage (or miss). The reasons for that are:

a) you get your strength bonus if you hit, even after the weapon has left your hand
b) you get the enhancement bonuses of the weapon if you hit, even after it has left your hand.

I don't think those are sufficient to say you are still wielding it after it has left your hand.

When you are wielding it, it is under your direct control. After you have thrown it, it is still "influenced" by you, but it is not under your direct control anymore. It still get's your strength bonus, because you were wielding it when you threw it (as stated on PHB page 113), and the enhancement bonus always applies to the weapon damage, whether you are wielding it or not (Mechanical traps with magical weapons still get the magic enhancement bonus).

The word in that description that allows it is the word "immediately". Yes, it is a free action, but it is an immediate free action explicitly called out by the definition of the special ability. The special ability does not state that any time the user wields the weapon or any time the weapon is in the users hand, etc. Rather it states:

"Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires."

Ok, that actually makes sense. I agree that it seems more reasonable that Spell Storing Ability can be activated even after you throw the weapon. It doesn't seem to require you to be wielding it at the time it activates, just that you desire it to activate, and it will do so if it hits and does damage.

It's an effect of the Spell Storing ability, not the definition of "Wielding".

Now, having said all of that, it is also quite clear that Vampiric Touch in this item does not give the hit points to the wielder of the weapon. He is not casting the spell. The weapon is. The special ability description is quite clear on that. In fact, the weapon gets the temporary hit points which makes the weapon more difficult to destroy (since weapons have both hardness and hit points). Granted, whether the weapon gets temporary hit points is debatable since the temporary hit point section of the PHB explicitly discuss characters and does not discuss inanimate objects. But to me, hit points are hit points.

Agreed.

 

[drnuncheon]

That is unless one takes immediately to mean with no time intervening. In which case one could conclude that the the weapon casts the spell at the same time as it successfully deals damage to its target.

It's not 'at the same time' - it's after, because you have to actually deal the damage for the spell to be able to be cast. That is explicit in the description of spell storing.

Since Frank has told us that you stop wielding the dagger when the damage is dealt, and the casting of the spell happens on a new (albeit free) action, it's very clear that you can't command the dagger to cast the spell because by the time you take your immediate free action, you are no longer the wielder.

J