Vancian? Why can't we let it go?

I don't see any issue with having vanacian and nonvanacian casters in the same edition, we've done it before.

The binder (for all of its faults) was a nonvanacian character. You got abilities that were at-will or quasi-at will (every 5 round abilities). The warlock served as the at will caster. The psion serves as a spell point type of magic.
 

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Does anyone who enjoys the vancian system of spells also think that a wizard with a crossbow is a good look, or something any self respecting wizard would honestly do?
Yep.

As noted before, the casters in Vance's work HAD to use non-magical resources, since they had few spells.

Gandalf may use a magic sword, but ultimately, he's using a sword, not casting.

Many of the casters in the Thieves' World shared setting are as prone to using mundane means to achieving their ends as they are magical...and are skilled in those ways as well.

Mages in Niven's "Warlock" series cannot afford to be profligate with magic because it is basically a finite resource, so they rarely cast spells.

In Shanarra, magic can be a corrupting influence on caster and target, so magic is not a tool of first resort.

In humorous fantasy, the wizards of Discworld rarely cast spells because magic doesn't necessarily make things easier- deciding whether to cast or not is something that requires insight and wisdom...plus a snack, probably.
 
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As someone pointed out in another thread, almost every D&D-like system ever devised eschewed Vancian magic.

That tells me two things. First, there are alternative systems available for those who do not want Vancian magic. Second, Vancian magic is one of the few systems that makes D&D different to almost every other FRPG.

May it always be a part of D&D. Expunging the Vance influence would be a deal breaker for me.

It's idiosyncratic. It's quirky. It has character. Great!
 

Yep.

As noted before, the casters in Vance's work HAD to use non-magical resources, since they had few spells.

Out of curiosity, since I really haven't read Vance's stuff other than essentially the Cliff's Notes version, what other weaponry did they use? Or did they tend to talk their way out of problems?
 

*minor issue: Memorising spells twice: that makes no sense whatsoever. How do you do that? Memorise something twice. Use the memorised spell, which is wiped from your memory but still remember it because you have another identical copy memorised ...? What??? I don't think you should be able to memorise the same spell twice.

This is a matter of terminology. Third Edition didn't call it memorizing, they called it preparation. The concept was that spells actually took a long time to cast, but you could prepare a spell by doing most of the work, and the incomplete spell would hang around. Then using the spell was a simple matter of completing it, which only took a standard action.

So, using that logic, you could prepare a spell multiple times. Logically, you could also prepare it, use it, then prepare it again, or you could even simply cast it from the book. This is the system I would like to see.
 

Out of curiosity, since I really haven't read Vance's stuff other than essentially the Cliff's Notes version, what other weaponry did they use? Or did they tend to talk their way out of problems?
In the first of Vance's Tales of the Dying Earth, Turjan of Miir, the eponymous protagonist carries a "blade" -- a sword requiring no further description.

This passage deserves further study by players of our shared hobby:
As he sat gazing across the darkening land, memory took Turjan to a night of years before, when the Sage had stood beside him.

"In ages gone," the Sage had said, his eyes fixed on a low star, "a thousand spells were known to sorcery and the wizards effected their wills. Today, as Earth dies, a hundred spells remain to man's knowledge, and these have come to us through the ancient books ... But there is one called Pandelume, who knows all the spells, all the incantations, cantraps, runes, and thaumaturgies that have ever wrenched and molded space .. ." He had fallen silent, lost in his thoughts.

"Where is this Pandelume?" Turjan had asked presently.

"He dwells in the land of Embelyon," the Sage had replied, "but where this land lies, no one knows."

"How does one find Pandelume, then?"

The Sage had smiled faintly. "If it were ever necessary, a spell exists to take one there."

Both had been silent a moment; then the Sage had spoken, staring out over the forest

"One may ask anything of Pandelume, and Pandelume will answer—provided that the seeker performs the service Pandelume requires. And Pandelume drives a hard bargain."

Then the Sage had shown Turjan the spell in question, which he had discovered in an ancient portfolio, and kept secret from all the world.

Turjan, remembering this conversation, descended to his study, a long low hall with stone walls and a stone floor deadened by a thick russet rug. The tomes which held Turjan's sorcery lay on the long table of black steel or were thrust helter-skelter into shelves. These were volumes compiled by many wizards of the past, untidy folios collected by the Sage, leather-bound librams setting forth the syllables of a hundred powerful spells, so cogent that Turjan's brain could know but four at a time.

Turjan found a musty portfolio, turned the heavy pages to the spell the Sage had shown him, the Call to the Violent Cloud. He stared down at the characters and they burned with an urgent power, pressing off the page as if frantic to leave the dark solitude of the book.

Turjan closed the book, forcing the spell back into oblivion. He robed himself with a short blue cape, tucked a blade into his belt, fitted the amulet holding Laccodel's Rune to his wrist. Then he sat down and from a journal chose the spells he would take with him. What dangers he might meet he could not know, so he selected three spells of general application: the Excellent Prismatic Spray, Phandaal's Mantle of Stealth, and the Spell of the Slow Hour.

He climbed the parapets of his castle and stood under the far stars, breathing the air of ancient Earth ... How many times had this air been breathed before him? What cries of pain had this air experienced, what sighs, laughs, war shouts, cries of exultation, gasps…

The night was wearing on. A blue light wavered in the forest. Turjan watched a moment, then at last squared himself and uttered the Call to the Violent Cloud.

All was quiet; then came a whisper of movement swelling to the roar of great winds. A wisp of white appeared and waxed to a pillar of boiling black smoke. A voice deep and harsh issued from the turbulence.

"At your disturbing power is this instrument come; whence will you go?"

"Four Directions, then One," said Turjan. "Alive must I be brought to Embelyon."

The cloud whirled down; far up and away he was snatched, flung head over heels into incalculable distance.

Four directions was he thrust, then one, and at last a great blow hurled him from the cloud, sprawled him into Embelyon.

Turjan gained his feet and tottered a moment, half-dazed. His senses steadied; he looked about him.

He stood on the bank of a limpid pool. Blue flowers grew, about his ankles and at his back reared a grove of tall blue-green trees, the leaves blurring on high into mist. Was Embelyon of Earth? The trees were Earth-like, the flowers were of familiar form, the air was of the same texture ... But there was an odd lack to this land and it was difficult to determine. Perhaps it came of the horizon's curious vagueness, perhaps from the blurring quality of the air, lucent and uncertain as water. Most strange, however, was the sky, a mesh of vast ripples and cross-ripples, and these refracted a thousand shafts of colored light, rays which in mid-air wove wondrous laces, rainbow nets, in all the jewel hues. So as Turjan watched, there swept over him beams of claret, topaz, rich violet, radiant green. He now perceived that the colors of the flowers and the trees were but fleeting functions of the sky, for now the flowers were of salmon tint, and the trees a dreaming purple. The flowers deepened to copper, then with a suffusion of crimson, warmed through maroon to scarlet, and the trees had become sea-blue.

"The Land None Knows Where," said Turjan to himself. "Have I been brought high, low, into a pre-existence or into the after-world?" He looked toward the horizon and thought to see a black curtain rising high into the murk, and this curtain encircled the land in all directions.​
 

As someone pointed out in another thread, almost every D&D-like system ever devised eschewed Vancian magic.

That tells me two things.
First, there are alternative systems available for those who do not want Vancian magic. Second, Vancian magic is one of the few systems that makes D&D different to almost every other FRPG.
Really? What that tells me is that people want a viable way to play D&D without Vancian magic, and this certainly does not require expunging Vancian magic from D&D.
 
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Hrm...I think I know how to impliment it. Instead of spell slots, you get spell points - but points are not spent casting the spell, but rather spent preparing the spell. Say a 3rd level wizard has 5 spell points. She can spend them on 5 first level spells, 3 first levels spells and a second level spell, or two second level spell with a single first level spell. Spells still have to be chosen at the beginning of the day, and are spend for the day when cast. This counters the point-hoarding I've seen complained about with psions, and cleans up some of the spell slot issues. Points per level...caster level + caster's spell modifying stat (Int for wizards, Cha for Sorcerers, Wis for Clerics, etc).

Isn't this almost exactly the optional spell prep system presented in 2E's old Skills & Powers book?
 

That tells me two things. First, there are alternative systems available for those who do not want Vancian magic. Second, Vancian magic is one of the few systems that makes D&D different to almost every other FRPG.

Really? What that tells me is that people want a viable way to play D&D without Vancian magic, and this certainly does not require expunging Vancian magic from D&D.
I believe Ranes' first point is that there are a host of D&D clones out there without Vancian casting.

Combined with the second point, the question becomes: If there are high-quality D&D clones in the market without Vancian magic, why the strong desire for some to have D&D lose Vancian magic, costing the game some of its unique identity? Is it somehow bad to play one of those clones instead of D&D? If this is so, how do you think lovers of Vancian magic would feel if they had to play a D&D clone that had Vancian magic because it was excised from D&D?
 

I believe Ranes' first point is that there are a host of D&D clones out there without Vancian casting.

Combined with the second point, the question becomes: If there are high-quality D&D clones in the market without Vancian magic, why the strong desire for some to have D&D lose Vancian magic, costing the game some of its unique identity? Is it somehow bad to play one of those clones instead of D&D? If this is so, how do you think lovers of Vancian magic would feel if they had to play a D&D clone that had Vancian magic because it was excised from D&D?
Let me highlight my last post again for you:
Really? What that tells me is that people want a viable way to play D&D without Vancian magic, and this certainly does not require expunging Vancian magic from D&D.
It's a complete strawman to suggest that giving people options to play non-Vancian magic within D&D is tantamount to throwing excising Vancian magic from D&D.
 

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