Vancian? Why can't we let it go?

[A'koss]

I did like the idea I saw in another thread which tried to address both camps. A wizard has a number of slots which can be filled by either a weaker at-will/encounter version of a spell or a more powerful & useful daily version version of the same spell.

An at-will (encounter?) fireball might have a 10'r, certain amount of damage and affects all targets in radius. But if you fill the slot with a daily version of the spell it's twice the radius, more damage and can be cast with complete control to weave around visible allies.

At-will (encounter?) Fly - affects 1 person. Daily version - whole party. Etc...

Specialist Wizard? Perhaps they can turn a daily spell in their field into an encounter spell by occupying x number of slots.


That way you can have your purely Vancian mage, your "unlimited" mage, or more likely... mix and match something inbetween.

 

[kinem]

I've never met a dm who recommended to a spanking brand new player to play a magic user. Even the best dm authories recommend, new players should play non casting classes. This really demonstrates the limitations of it and narrows the appeal of dungeons and dragons as a fantasy game with magic users.

On the contrary, there should be enough complexity in the game that most new players should stick with simpler subsystems at first. For a sci-fi game it would be in technology; for D&D it's in magic. It helps keep the game interesting and a flexible spell list (which is what requires complexity) allows enough interaction between flavor and mechanics and judgment calls to keep the game from degenerating into ... well, into 4e: a flavorless chess game.

None of which even has anything to do with Vancian magic; playing a 3.X psion as a first character (using power points and powers that don't need to be prepared in advance, but do need to be selected at character creation and level-up) would raise the same complexity issues. As would playing a master of tech in a sci-fi game.

For players that want to use magic right away, of course there can be suggested spell lists, or they could play a warlock or the like.

 

[Remathilis]

You want spell slots and spell levels, but do the spell slots have to be level specific, or would you approve of generic spell slots that can hold spells of any level known?

I mean, let's be honest. Vancian magic isn't going away. Spell levels aren't going away. And alternative magic systems will likely be available, if not at launch, then eventually. But, that doesn't mean we can't explore improvements to the implementation.

I worry about spells balancing over levels (would anyone ever prep a 1st level spell when they could just load up 5th level ones at 10th level)? Still, the idea has merit...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't see the "core" of D&D in any edition ever going entirely away from Vancian magic. But there could be ways to expand what "Vancian" magic is and how it works. I also think it gives it a kinda... "mystical" feeling. It's weird, unusual.

D&D 4 itnroduced At-Will and Encounter spells. In D&D 4, these were still separated from each other, each was a unique category of spells, and you learned each of them independently of each other.
But what if we changed this a little - the spell you memorize basically gives you access to 3 versions of the spell - one At-Will, one Encounter, and one Daily.

Fireball would come with Scorching Burst (At-Will), Fire Burst (Encounter) and Fireball (Daily). Fly could be Feather Fall (At-Will), Jump (Encounter) and Fly (Daily).
The spells become thematically linked with each other. You don't memorize dozens or so of spells, even at higher levels. Maybe never more than 4 6. This should cut down the complexity somewhat. And it would maintain some mystical element, but also some "sense" behind it.

 

[Zireael]

D&D 4 itnroduced At-Will and Encounter spells. In D&D 4, these were still separated from each other, each was a unique category of spells, and you learned each of them independently of each other.
But what if we changed this a little - the spell you memorize basically gives you access to 3 versions of the spell - one At-Will, one Encounter, and one Daily.

Fireball would come with Scorching Burst (At-Will), Fire Burst (Encounter) and Fireball (Daily). Fly could be Feather Fall (At-Will), Jump (Encounter) and Fly (Daily).
The spells become thematically linked with each other. You don't memorize dozens or so of spells, even at higher levels. Maybe never more than 4 6. This should cut down the complexity somewhat. And it would maintain some mystical element, but also some "sense" behind it.

It was not 4e, but Tome of Battle that introduced the system. 4e simply took it further.

I prefer the ToB iteration to the 4e, but still I prefer it to the Vancian (AD&D /3e) system.

Your idea, sir, has merit.

 

[Greg K]

I am willing to ditch Vancian for a system similar to either Savage Worlds or True20.

1. Simple
2. Less space taken up in the core book
3. Cuts way way back on the number of new spell write-ups. The results are less padding, less duplication of new spell write-ups that are minor variations in appearance or mechanics to fit a new school, and, in my opinion, less crappy spells- so less spell bloat in general.
4. avoids x/day

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Fireball would come with Scorching Burst (At-Will), Fire Burst (Encounter) and Fireball (Daily). Fly could be Feather Fall (At-Will), Jump (Encounter) and Fly (Daily).

I like this. Kind of "spell path" system. Built in specialization. Possibilities are vast.

While it may reduce the mystic qualities, you could have the above be Fireball I, Fireball II could have Fire Burst (At-Will), Fireball (Encounter), Delayed Blast Fireball (Daily). Fireball III could have Fireball (At-Will), DB Fireball (Encounter), Meteor Swarm (Daily).

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I also think we should get rid of the concept of "per day" spells, and instead think of them entirely as prepared spells. I see no reason why a spell can't be cast, then after combat, prepared again. This essentially would make spells encounter powers, but without the mechanical terminology.

Perhaps make spell preparation take longer. If each spell takes five minutes per level of the spell to prepare, then you're not going to be able to refresh your entire spell list between encounters, but you might be able to prepare one or two spells, particularly if they're lower level.

 

[Celebrim]

I also think we should get rid of the concept of "per day" spells, and instead think of them entirely as prepared spells. I see no reason why a spell can't be cast, then after combat, prepared again. This essentially would make spells encounter powers, but without the mechanical terminology.

Perhaps make spell preparation take longer. If each spell takes five minutes per level of the spell to prepare, then you're not going to be able to refresh your entire spell list between encounters, but you might be able to prepare one or two spells, particularly if they're lower level.

So let me get this straight:

a) You want to make all of a D&D spellcasters spells encounter powers.
b) To balance that, you want to increase the complexity of the time bookkeeping in D&D.
c) Because, you want to mechanically punish players for pressing on in the adventure and reward them for finding reasons to stop.

Is that what I'm understanding your goals to be?

 

[Celebrim]

Also, I would like to see some consensus that Cantrips can be basically cast at will - as long as they are minor spells that just tend to personalise the Wizard, rather than particularly damaging spells.

On the contrary, it tends to be the utility spells that need to be restricted and not the damaging spells. The real danger of the Wizard historically is usually in how much it outshines other classes outside of combat. At times it outshines them in combat as well, but often in 1e this was essentially do to ignoring rules that restricted Wizards, and in 3e it was due to dominating the action economy and not how much damage they could output.

I have no problem with a starting Wizard essentially having access to unlimited 'Ray of Frost' spells. As the Warlock proves, unlimited ranged touch attacks can be easily balanced with other classes and represent only situational advantages over sword swinging and arrow firing. If all you want is to not have to depend on throwing darts swinging a staff or other mundane attacks for your wizard, and all you want is to be able to cast Prestidigitation essentially at will, then that is easy and I can imagine any number of mechanics for it from the simple to the complex, from the revolutionary to things that essentially would accomplish that purpose without changing the rules much at all.