Vancian? Why can't we let it go?

[mmadsen]

If you get down to the mechanics, 'Vancian' magic is basically nothing more than powers on a cool down cycle. To me, it's still Vancian magic if you can use the powers 1/encounter or 1/round or 1/game session or 1/x number of seconds as in World or Warcraft or whatever. However, the shorter the cool down cycle, the weaker you have to make the powers to keep it balanced and interesting.

While I agree with your analysis that a shorter cool-down cycle implies weaker powers, if you want to keep things balanced, I have to disagree with your characterization of Vancian magic as any magic with such a cool-down cycle.

The key element of Vancian magic is that you must prepare specific spells ahead of time. In a Vancian system, magical energy isn't fungible. The spells you prepared earlier -- and have not used yet! -- are the spells you have available -- not the spells you know. If you want to cast two fireballs, prepare two fireballs.

Anyway, if you like the idea of a longer cool-down cycle, I recommend looking at GURPS's Unlimited Mana variant. The standard GURPS magic system is one of the quick-cycle systems you decry, so the designer of the Unlimited Mana introduced two important changes: (1) spellcasters get far more spell points for casting, but those spell points do not recover overnight, and (2) it's not a hard limit, but a soft one, with consequences for using too much power.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

The key element of Vancian magic is that you must prepare specific spells ahead of time. In a Vancian system, magical energy isn't fungible. The spells you prepared earlier -- and have not used yet! -- are the spells you have available -- not the spells you know. If you want to cast two fireballs, prepare two fireballs.

This sums it up pretty well, but it also leads to one of the problems I have with the 3rd Edition implementation: Spell slots by spell level.

In my mind, a wizard would have a limited amount of total "space" for prepared spells, but how that space is used is flexible. Higher level spells would take more space than lower level spells. So, I could choose to have a few high level spells, or several lower level spells.

But that's not how it works. Each spell level is given it's own specific space. Lower level spells can use higher level space, but higher level spells can't use lower level space. But there's absolutely no fluff reason why this should be so.

Then there's the fact that, due to the way saves work, lower level spells stop being effective in an offensive manner, and not because their effects wouldn't be useful, but because enemies always make their saves.

Despite that, a wizard must still track lower level spell slots.

These, though, are implementation problems, and solvable. Some more thoughts on what's possible:

More powerful spells should be more powerful because of their effects. Resisting the effects of a spell should have nothing to do with the level of a spell, with the exception that a higher level character or monster might have better resistances to the simpler and more common effects provided by low level spells.

Wizards should be provided a certain amount of preparation space. Some spells take up more space than others.

Conceptually, the amount of space a spell takes might be separate from it's level. For example, burning hands and fireball could both be the same level, because they both do simple fire damage, but fireball would take up more space because it's an area of effect spell. I won't say this is the right direction, but it's worth considering.

In fact, if we want to preserve the idea that all spells must be prepared, but we don't want caster's running out, perhaps some spells stay prepared after being cast. They still take up space and have to be chosen beforehand, but can be used indefinitely.

 

[Mark CMG]

I like the idea of spells themselves being more flexible, such as taking an energy spell that can be used as fire or frost or whatever, then deciding whether it is being used as a first level, second level, etc. on up through whatever level of power the spellcaster can throw, chosen in the moment based on need.

 

[Mark CMG]

I'm seeing some Skyrim love in the house.

Naw. I'm sure it's a fun game based on the YouTube vids I've seen, but this is a system I've been developing for years.

 

[Aldarc]

It is not a simulationist approach to magic at all, which is where I think the disconnect people have with it comes from. Oddly, it is often the least simulationist D&D players that howl the most about how Vancian magic doesn't work like in the stories.

Should this matter? Why raise this point at all? Or are you trying to frame von-Vancianites as hypocritical?

If you want flexibility, you have to have either very very weak magic or very very restricted magic. That's the choice.

Except there's not a choice, because certain players get up-in-arms when anyone says anything negative or express their distaste of Vancian magic. So it's often expressed as either it's Vancian or nothing.

So either present two classes - Wizard (Vancian) and Sorcerer (Mana Point, for example) - or just present a magic system that can be substituted for all the magic classes in the game.

 

[Glade Riven]

Naw. I'm sure it's a fun game based on the YouTube vids I've seen, but this is a system I've been developing for years.

Guess they kinda stole your idea, then - classless/single class, 3 main stats (although their's is magic, stamina, health). Skyrim uses Perk (Feat/trait/talent) Trees for bonuses

 

[Mark CMG]

Guess they kinda stole your idea, then - classless/single class, 3 main stats (although their's is magic, stamina, health). Skyrim uses Perk (Feat/trait/talent) Trees for bonuses

heh I'm sure they had no knowledge.

What I'm working on requires a lot more interaction, face-to-face, then they are likely to embrace for their style of gaming. It builds first on backgrounds during character generation then on in-game (on-screen and off-screen, if you will) development (as well as background) for advancement.

I'm hoping it avoids being labeled as too videogamey.

 

[Glade Riven]

This sums it up pretty well, but it also leads to one of the problems I have with the 3rd Edition implementation: Spell slots by spell level.

In my mind, a wizard would have a limited amount of total "space" for prepared spells, but how that space is used is flexible. Higher level spells would take more space than lower level spells. So, I could choose to have a few high level spells, or several lower level spells.

Hrm...I think I know how to impliment it. Instead of spell slots, you get spell points - but points are not spent casting the spell, but rather spent preparing the spell. Say a 3rd level wizard has 5 spell points. She can spend them on 5 first level spells, 3 first levels spells and a second level spell, or two second level spell with a single first level spell. Spells still have to be chosen at the beginning of the day, and are spend for the day when cast. This counters the point-hoarding I've seen complained about with psions, and cleans up some of the spell slot issues. Points per level...caster level + caster's spell modifying stat (Int for wizards, Cha for Sorcerers, Wis for Clerics, etc).

 

[Glade Riven]

heh I'm sure they had no knowledge.

What I'm working on requires a lot more interaction, face-to-face, then they are likely to embrace for their style of gaming. It builds first on backgrounds during character generation then on in-game (on-screen and off-screen, if you will) development (as well as background) for advancement.

I'm hoping it avoids being labeled as too videogamey.

Well, Skyrim starts you off with a blank slate, and you get better in something based on what you do. Keeping track of XP for each individual skill doesn't work well outside of a videogame.

 

[MoxieFu]

I like the idea of spells themselves being more flexible, such as taking an energy spell that can be used as fire or frost or whatever, then deciding whether it is being used as a first level, second level, etc. on up through whatever level of power the spellcaster can throw, chosen in the moment based on need.

Sound a lot like the spells from the d20 Wheel of Time RPG.