Vancian? Why can't we let it go?

[Henry]

For me, it's not about spell-slot-fire-and-forget being superior -- it's just one of those deal-breakers, sacred cow for me that says "not D&D enough" when I don't see it. I'm fine with metamagics, trading slots up and down, etc. -- but to forgo it for mana points or otherwise, it's just a deal-breaker to my sensibilities, I can't get around it. Even 4E had
a concession to wizard PCs to have an ability that mimicked it.

 

[Mark CMG]

Well, Skyrim starts you off with a blank slate, and you get better in something based on what you do. Keeping track of XP for each individual skill doesn't work well outside of a videogame.

You only need to keep track of what you advance in. You create a background and choose a number of Facets based on that background. Then you choose a Path to follow during your first level. Each time you complete an Event (rather than XP), you gain a Facet, which you choose to advance based on something you've done during the game at some point. If you were in combat, you might take a new Facet in that, or in sneaking, or whatever. Facets are very maleable and tie into Ability Score bonuses among some other things. So you might tie a combat Facet to Strength bonus or Dexterity bonus. You only need to justify it based off your background or what you have done in-game, most likely within the time between the last Event and the most recent Event. Some Facets are gained between levels (unless the group wishes to defer all advancement to the point at which you level for bookkeeping reasons). The first four Events gain a Facet, the fifth gains two Facets and also denotes a level, which includes an increase in Health Points and the choice of the Path you are to pursue during the next level.

 

[Mark CMG]

Sound a lot like the spells from the d20 Wheel of Time RPG.

That I haven't seen yet. I may have to check it out since it uses the OGL and there might be some OGC to utilize. Spellcasting is also narratively flexible. If a player wants their fire spell to be a line of fire or a ball of fire or merely a burning sensation, they describe it in that manner. Of course, it can only be as brilliant as the number of Factors used (basically its level), so a ball of fire with one factor might manifest as a throw softball-sized fireball and do but 1d6 of damage, while a 6 Factor fireball is going to be much larger.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Vancian magic is, for me, one of the defining traits of D&D. Without it, it is one more step closer to having its uniqueness diluted into being just another FRPG.

Not, however, that I'm opposed to other systems being in the game. I've welcomed other methods like psionics, fatigue systems, incarnum, mana points, etc., into my games. But always with the Vancian backdrop.

 

[Remathilis]

Vancian is a dealbreaker for me: its in there or I don't play it.

I don't mind alternatives (psionics/PPs, sorcerers/spontaneous). I don't mind giving mages and priests at-will class abilities to give them something to do (such as a magic bolt attack or a cleric getting healing word per encounter). But I want spell slots per day and spell levels.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Vancian is a dealbreaker for me: its in there or I don't play it.

I don't mind alternatives (psionics/PPs, sorcerers/spontaneous). I don't mind giving mages and priests at-will class abilities to give them something to do (such as a magic bolt attack or a cleric getting healing word per encounter). But I want spell slots per day and spell levels.

You want spell slots and spell levels, but do the spell slots have to be level specific, or would you approve of generic spell slots that can hold spells of any level known?

I mean, let's be honest. Vancian magic isn't going away. Spell levels aren't going away. And alternative magic systems will likely be available, if not at launch, then eventually. But, that doesn't mean we can't explore improvements to the implementation.

 

[Greg K]

If Vancian is going to be there, then I want it handled as spontaneous magic.

However, I, personally, am tired of the endless lists of spells in the core books and supplements (for 4e replace spells with powers).

 

[ferratus]

I myself miss collecting all the spells. The 4e wizard was a big frustration for me because I wanted more spells to choose from. Not because I wanted to cast them all (not all spells were created equal after all) but I just liked having spells in my library, and casting interesting spells occassionaly to suplement my usual array of spells.

Of course, I'd prefer if it wasn't the only game in town.

 

[Therise]

I rather like the idea of at-will spells for things like cantrips and lvl 1 spells, then semi-Vancian spells for higher levels.

By semi-Vancian, instead of "memorization" just say that it requires advance preparation. Don't have spells be instantly "forgotten" but rather that they need a framework, laying down of energies, some kind of fluff to make the wizard actually feel like he's not just choosing specific bullets for his gun each day. The vast training required for magic use requires something like knowing how to handle the power flow of magic, understanding how the mind interacts with magic, that kind of thing.

But actual "forgetting"? Meh, forget that.

And perhaps as wizards, clerics, or whatever spellcasting class gains in their levels, open up spells to becoming "at-wills".

When you're level 1-4, only cantrips are at-will. At lvl 5-9, your level 1 spells become at-will. At level 10-14, your level 2 spells become at-will. That would also speak to the advancing power of the character and show that "simple stuff" becomes routine.

 

[TrippyHippy]

By semi-Vancian, instead of "memorization" just say that it requires advance preparation. Don't have spells be instantly "forgotten" but rather that they need a framework, laying down of energies, some kind of fluff to make the wizard actually feel like he's not just choosing specific bullets for his gun each day. The vast training required for magic use requires something like knowing how to handle the power flow of magic, understanding how the mind interacts with magic, that kind of thing.

I think that was what they were trying to do in 3rd edition, but maybe the shift in language didn't hold.

For me, I have always best understood it as an act of 'preparing spells' rather than just a memorising them, with the final incantation only being held back for when the spell is to be finally cast. This is a paradigm issue.

Also, I would like to see some consensus that Cantrips can be basically cast at will - as long as they are minor spells that just tend to personalise the Wizard, rather than particularly damaging spells. I have some ideas for increasing sponteneity at other levels, but the Cantrips one really is easy to impliment.