Vancian? Why can't we let it go?

[TrippyHippy]

I'd say the fire-and-forget-from-a-list-of-spells is about as simple as it gets in RPG magic systems.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Far as I'm concerned, some form of Vancian casting is superior to spell point or mana system, because those never quite work as well as people think they do. And for that matter, systems where spells are driven off of fatigue, damage to hit points, or pull on ability scores, also have their problems.

I think the Arcana Evolved mixture of slots and spell points is about the best "spell point-ish" system I've ever seen, when it comes to actually working as intended. Mainly, it works that well because the conversion of low power to high and vice versa is carefully callibrated to be useful, but not the predominant choice. (Not sure the whole AE system would fly in standard D&D, but a simpler version, without the "readied" part, might.)

 

[frankthedm]

They definitely had their flaws, but I rather liked the concept of sort-of specialist-wizard-in-a-box classes that showed up in 3.5 expansions (warmage, beguiller, dread necromancer, artificer) -- where you cast like a sorcerer and got every spell on your list.

Nice classes for those who didn't want to be saddled with the responsibilities of HAVING the huge spell list. Not so nice when the party has to go out and buy "typically spellcaster" type spells because no one wound up playing a typical spellcaster.

 

[Piscivorous]

I've noticed some players have a problem waiting until the next day to get spells replenished while simultaneously not being able to have their characters in-game not do much until the next day even if that means just telling the GM that they are laying low or hanging out.

Part of the problem is players over-doing it. They start flinging spells during the first encounter of the day and mid-way through the second encounter have nothing but Read Magic and a Light spell. It's their responsibility to marshal their resources. If not, sit back and crank out crossbow bolts as the parties ranged attacker.

It's not easy being a wizard or sorceror. But making it through the trials of early levels, you soon become the most potent member in the party.

 

[Vayden]

It's not easy being a wizard or sorceror. But making it through the trials of early levels, you soon become the most potent member in the party.

Yep, that's something I never want to see again. One of my favorite things about 4e was that low level casters and high level non casters were both fun and did awesome things.

That being said, I'm resigned to the fact that if we're doing an "edition for everyone", there will be Vancian magic. I'm just hoping that it's not for all casters. Let's let the Wizards be Vancian, the Sorcerors have something more like the 4e powers system, or something like that.

 

[Somantus]

Is this another thread about how D&D should not be D&D?

You guys realize that your argument is about something that doesn't exist? Magic doesn't exist, so its implementation is a rather strange argument. From a game rules perspective, D&D works great.

I think this youtube video tells it pretty well.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLWzdcFI0JY]RPG Pondering: Vancian Magic - YouTube[/ame]

 

[mmadsen]

By the way, D&D's notion of "Vancian" magic differs from Vance's own in that Vance's wizards might only memorize two or three spells in preparation for a rough day, not a pyramid of one really high-level spell, a couple fairly high-level spells, a few mid-level spells, and then a bunch of low-level spells.

 

[Minigiant]

I never saw the bookkeeping, the power, or the amount you get vs the amount of encounters as a problem with the Vancian system.

The issue I saw is that they made spells compete with each other. A caster had X number of spells a day and either had to choose between them each day (spells per day) or when you got them (spell known). The issue is that spells had different usages and times when they were used. We have offensive combat spells, defensive combat spells, exploration spells, creation spells, information spells, etc.

So at low levels when casters had few slots, the spell had to complete with each other to get. But at higher levels, there were enough slot of every type of spell the caster wanted and they could do everything provided that was willing to spend the resources.

That's why I'd prefer multiple systems at once for casters. That way the caster can be an all day problem-solver and a few times a day monster killer. Or an all day monster killer and sometimes problem solver. Or something in between.

 

[Gort]

By the way, D&D's notion of "Vancian" magic differs from Vance's own in that Vance's wizards might only memorize two or three spells in preparation for a rough day, not a pyramid of one really high-level spell, a couple fairly high-level spells, a few mid-level spells, and then a bunch of low-level spells.

I think the best implementation that I'd like to see would be having two or three "heavy-duty" spells that have a real punch, but a good variety of general purpose magic - a low-powered magic missile, and a bunch of cantrips. Thus you can do magic stuff all day long without resorting to exhausting resources like wands.

I felt that the number of spell slots you ended up with in 3e did get a little excessive - I'd prefer to see swapping out the low-level spells for the same number of high-level spells as you levelled up rather than constantly increasing numbers of spells - the book-keeping got a bit of a pain.

 

[DonTadow]

But rather than engaging in a long debate with you, I'd suggest you give up D&D completely for about 10 years and go play a bunch of other systems. Then we can have this discussion in a more productive way.

YOu're kidding right? You do know I have been reviewing game systems as a cushy side job for the last 10 years?

Lag behind what, exactly?

Dnd isn't pulling in the number of people it did or even should be. With fantasy being so popular now, people should be coming in droves to play it. But the last few editions have been so "made for the old gamer" that we either go overboard trying to attract them "4e" or fail to realize the things that would bring them in... like ease of use.

Or they are are familiar with a cool down system, in which you have a list of spells which you may cast and then after a certain period you can cast them again. Hmmmm...

Cool down effect systems frequently are accompanied by some type of exhaustion system.

I didnt even mention the horror in trying to balance new spells. Or that every game table has a player or two or three who fudges their spells left. Or the extra preparation i have to do to keep track of what level of spells do what and who used it when.

If 5e is like 4e, you wouldn't need to worry about powerful spells that take you out of combat completely, so things like sleep or charm will disable, but not prevent.

And yes 20 years ago, final fantasy used the Vancien system. As did a game called Shadowbane and I think the old Wizardry. All of which are 20 years old and counting.

Let's face it, if this game is going to survive, the mean age of it has to significantly rise.

I'm betting the people who like the Vancien system has not gamed with a person 15 or 20 years thier junior. I have. I have 2 in my game right now and I have been getting some interesting feedback to the point where i've house ruled a ton of pathfinder stuff just to modernize it a bit.