Vancian? Why can't we let it go?

[Gort]

This whole 'Vancian Sucks' thing is as tiresome now as the whole 'Hit Points' suck and 'Class Suck' debates. I agree with Somantus; must we have another thread about how D&D shouldn't be D&D?

None of these things are required for a game to be D&D. Especially not Vancian magic.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

There are aspects of Vancian magic that I like. With really high level spells, it feels right to have to choose from a few to have prepared. That aspect is cool. It just shouldn't be the only method of spellcasting a wizard or cleric has.

I once ran with a house rule where you could cast, at will, known spells that were significantly lower level than your best spells. Then I gave wizards and clerics a fixed number of spell slots that they could put higher level spells in.

I don't claim it was balanced. It wasn't. But everyone really enjoyed the mechanics of it. It meant you still had limited resources, but you never ran out of magic, and you didn't have to manage all of your spell slots, only a handful.

 

[Aldarc]

No one will change anyone's mind in this thread about the merits, or lack thereof, of Vancian magic.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

No one will change anyone's mind in this thread about the merits, or lack thereof, of Vancian magic.

Of course not. The purpose of posting on a web forum is for me to tell you my opinion, because I'm egotistical enough to think you care, and to have you agree with me so I feel validated. Failing that, to prove you wrong in order to feel validated.

But you make a good point. It's time to move on to discussing what would be good for the game according to the goals of the new edition, and not just what we, as individuals would like.

* * *

As a baseline, I think the numbers and basic effects of magic should be determined. What effects come into play at what level, and to what degree. How much damage spells should be able to do if they're limited and if they're not.

Then, these numbers should be used to build a Vancian system, a free casting system, and perhaps a point based system. The more restrictive a system is, the more powerful it's effects are. Here is where the various trappings are attached to spells. Then, classes can be built around these various systems.

I think the default wizard and cleric should be a hybrid of Vancian spells and and lower power free casting abilities. This seems like the best compromise, and something that will most readily blend with materials from previous editions.

 

[TrippyHippy]

No one will change anyone's mind in this thread about the merits, or lack thereof, of Vancian magic.

I like the Vancian magic system - but I think there are ways it could be made more flexible.

- Why not have some spells in the Vancian lists that can be cast 'at will' when learned?
- This could be paid for in 'perma-slots' - that is you sacrifice, permanently, say 3 dots at the spells level from your available slots (and maybe a Feat too).
- Naturally, this reduces the flexibility and quantity of a simple fire-and-forget spell list, but it gives the option of basically making the magic more spontaneous (like a Sorcerer).

Only some spells can be perma-learned in this way (mainly things like magic missiles, some boost spells, definitely all the cantrips), whereas others always require preparation (rituals) as they are too complex and/or powerful (no permalearned Wish spells!).

For example, if a 1st Level Wizard has spell slots for 4 Cantrips (level 0) and 2 Level 1 spells, he could permanently sacrifice 3 of his Cantrip Slots (and a beginng Feat called "Spontanious casting", say?) for one permanent Cantrip that he can always cast at will. He would only have one more slot available however to choose other spells, and would never be able to change his permalearned spell or trade in the old one (unless maybe, you had another Feat called 'Deconstruct Magic' which allows you to release them back to other slots?). If a character could add more spell slots to his other levels (from Int boosts or just natural progression), he could carry out the same thing at all levels.

Of course, this may make the Sorcerer as is, a redundant class. If Wizards can have the option of gradually, or partially, turning their character into a spontaneous magic user, then what would the point of playing a Sorcerer be? However, I feel that the Sorcerer could be reinvented as only being able to choose 'At Will' Spells, whilst also being boosted by having better weapons, armour and combat stats - Like Elric.

 

[darkseraphim]

Because Gary loved it, and it was his heartfelt salute to his favorite author. The favorite author of the guy who invented RPGs ... and you guys want to rip it out?

Yeah, if I'm weary of the dead horse rational argument I go for the emotional throat

 

[DonTadow]

What are your thoughts on a robust spell system for non-combat situations?

Not sure, but the best magic system I've played (variant) was Enworld's Elements of Magic. My party still clamars for it. It had some balancing issues, but it was a great start (particuarlly the supplement that allowed for spells already ceated).

 

[Roland55]

No one will change anyone's mind in this thread about the merits, or lack thereof, of Vancian magic.

You're undoubtedly right.

Just don't tell me how complicated it is. How hard it is to teach or explain.

In over 35 years, I've never played with anyone who found it "hard to get." Some like it, some don't.

 

[Mark CMG]

Not sure, but the best magic system I've played (variant) was Enworld's Elements of Magic. My party still clamars for it. It had some balancing issues, but it was a great start (particuarlly the supplement that allowed for spells already ceated).

If 5E is OGL, they might import that system. Anyway, in your experience, what sort of non-combat magic gets used regularly in your games?

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I like the Vancian magic system - but I think there are ways it could be made more flexible.

- Why not have some spells in the Vancian lists that can be cast 'at will' when learned?
- This could be paid for in 'perma-slots' - that is you sacrifice, permanently, say 3 dots at the spells level from your available slots (and maybe a Feat too).
- Naturally, this reduces the flexibility and quantity of a simple fire-and-forget spell list, but it gives the option of basically making the magic more spontaneous (like a Sorcerer).

I like the fiddly nature of this, but it's probably more complex than is needed.

Here's a simple question for everyone: Should a tenth level caster be able to cast first level spells without preparation?

I say, yes, because it gives a sense of power, removes bookkeeping, and really isn't going to break anything since by that point, those spells aren't in high demand.

If you agree, then perhaps a system where spells get progressively easier to cast as a character gains level is the right direction.