D&D General Violence and D&D: Is "Murderhobo" Essential to D&D?

Derren

Hero
Of course violence is the core of D&D. If not violence what else?
The vast majority of the rules are about combat and violence, the only way classes improve is in their capability for violence, most rewards make you a better killer and the published adventures are a string leading from combat to combat. The rules even tell you how often you should fight someone a day.
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Not killing all your enemies usually makes for a better plot in the long run, I find.

This, I think, is a fairly important point. How many fights in D&D tend to be to the death? I'd wager most of them. Bandits attack and the table plays out the fight until all of the opposing figures (miniatures) or NPCs/monsters are dead or the party TPKs. And even if one side or the other tries to run (hah! as if PCs ever do that!), the other runs them down to slay them all.

It doesn't have to be that way. I like the idea of driving off the bandits. But it's got to be something of a cultural shift at the table. The players have to buy into the fact that they will still get XPs for defeating the encounter even if they don't kill everything and that fleeing bandits don't necessarily reflect a major loss of loot. If they believe they need to make the kills for all the XPs or loot, they'll make the kills.
 

Mirtek

Hero
While they are more chaotic than good, they do play them seeking to better the world around that. I assume you're listening to campaign 2 as their was no Q&A for campaign 1's first few episodes (that I know of). The second set of characters are more morally ambiguous, and each has personal goals that are selfish, but they would rescue a child rather than watch it be killed. They would try to do what is best for all people rather than capitalize on chaos for profit - although the temptation of profit would not necessarily be unnoticed.
No, episode 5 of campaign 1 still. They did a Q&A at the end of episode 4.

BTW, episode 5 is the one where they murder the duergar general they had already defeated, captured and who had told them everything they needed to know. Then he made the misstake to try to run away because his interpretation fo "free to go unsoiled" was different from the parties (aka leave with his equipment vs. leave all arms and armor to the party and see if you survive the underdark naked). He just tried to turn invisible and run away, was caught by their mindflayer ally in a hold person and then gleefully butchered by the party. Good people indeed.
 

MGibster

Legend
I think that the game does tend to treat violence as the primary means of problem-solving, and murderhoboing is just that taken to something of an extreme--it treats violence as the sole means of problem-solving and the primary means of interacting with the world. In this case "murderhobo" might be something of a synecdoche and stand in for the whole approach to violence in the game.

Yeah, all you have to do is open the rule book to see the violence inherent in the system. I've run a D&D sessions where we had no violence but those are few and far between. If we want to call it murderhoboing or whatever, yeah, I'd say it's part and parcel of the D&D experience.
 


prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Yeah, all you have to do is open the rule book to see the violence inherent in the system. I've run a D&D sessions where we had no violence but those are few and far between. If we want to call it murderhoboing or whatever, yeah, I'd say it's part and parcel of the D&D experience.

I agree that it's kinda baked into the game as written. Like you, I've DMed some sessions where there was no in-game violence, but they are rare and dependent on everyone at the table being OK with that being what happens that session.
 

Coroc

Hero
When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like nail.

The recent threads on the removal of alignment from humanoid races (such as orcs, kobolds, etc.) has caused me to reflect more deeply on the nature of violence within TTRPGs generally, and D&D specifically. I had my original thoughts here:

But at the end of that post, I curled around to what I think is the underlying issue I have recently been wrestling with; the nature of violence in Dungeons & Dragons. In the title to the post, I cheekily refer to the question as to whether or not "hobomurder" is essential to D&D, but this is more a post (and a thread) about the nature of violence in society, fiction, and D&D. About the way that our culture celebrates violence, and the way that the rules of D&D channel activities toward violence; in effect, the game itself rewards violence. That's the reason why I started this with the quote I did; traditionally, D&D prizes combat, and when the rules of the game are geared toward combat (violence), it is more likely that every problem can be solved through combat (violence).

My purpose is not to assign any sort of blame, by the way. This is just something I'm thinking about in light of WoTC's recent actions, and I am wondering if other people think the same way?

This brief examination will look at three issues; first is the overall cultural impact of violence, second is the rules focus of D&D toward violence, and third is the alignment aspect.


A. Natural Born Killers.

It's inarguable that popular culture favors and fetishizes violence. This is not something new; Edmund Burke, when writing on the sublime, observed, "Whatever is fitted in any sort to excite the ideas of pain, and danger, that is to say, whatever is in any sort terrible or is conversant about terrible objects, or operates in a manner analogous to terror, is a source of the sublime. ... Little more can be said than that the idea of bodily pain, in all the modes and degrees of labour, pain, anguish, torment, is productive of the sublime; and nothing else in this sense can produce it." We enjoy seeing violence and cruelty , so long as it is inflicted upon someone other than ourselves. A public hanging, a public execution, is the prior version of today's John Wick film; what is past is prologue.

This trend arguably became even more pronounced in America due to the adoption of the MPAA ratings code in 1968, which began to ratchet up the amount of allowable violence through the 70s and 80s while perversely clamping down on almost everything else (from profanity to sexual expression); eventually getting to the strange phenomenon of movies wherein a still-beating heart could be ripped out of a chest in a human sacrifice and scrape by with a PG, but two curse words or sexual innuendo (let alone actual nudity) sent a movie to the realm of R.

But key to this is the trend, in both movies and in television (seriously, 80s TV, man), of the "inverse ninja law." Specifically, that the hero would be able to dispatch numerous unnamed minions and henchmen with varying amount of bloodshed depending on the nature of the show/movie (Commando? Lots of blood. Hardcastle & McCormick or Airwolf? Not so much.) For the most part, mere identity within an evil organization or opposition to the hero is sufficient for death.

And this trend continues to today. For the most part, it is unremarked upon, unless it is elevated to the level of conspicuous slaughter so over-the-top it almost becomes a parody of itself (such as John Wick) or it arguably calls attention to the tension it would have with deeper themes (such as Snyder's Superman). Violence, though, is part and parcel of modern popular culture.


B. If Orcs Weren't Made out of XP, I Wouldn't Kill Them.

I am not going to dwell too much on the "hobomurder" past of D&D; I think that it is both true and overstated. Yes, there was a reason that (for example) the designers had to "stat up" shopkeepers in the City State of the Invincible Overlord in the 70s to keep PCs from slaughtering them to take their stuff; but there were a multitude of games and a multitude of styles. Not every game was so-called hobomurder.

Yet ... the rules of D&D, both then and now, favor violence. While there are different ways of getting XP (GP, milestone, etc.) the one, sure-fire way that has always existed? Killing.
How do you get more stuff? Killing the things that have the stuff.
Pre-published adventures (modules, APs)? Assume that you will kill stuff, with VERY few counter-examples (such as Beyond the Crystal Cave).
Spells? Mostly combat.
Rules and abilities for characters? Geared toward combat.
Combat rules? Almost all about lethal combat, not subduing.
Social skills? Almost always vastly underdeveloped compared to combat sections.

And so on. Heck, the game descended from wargaming, and people discuss the necessity of a grid or battlemap for playing! While you don't need to play D&D in a violent manner, it is very hard to avoid doing so.


C. Relevance to the Current Situation.

Circling back around, I understand why we want to have moral absolutes in D&D. If there is something that is evil, irredeemably and unalterably so, then it makes sense to kill it. There can be no argument, no quarter given, no moral qualms whatsoever about the just use of violence. To use the easiest example, if there is a demon that is unalterably evil, then destroying that demon must be good.

Given D&D is a game that is inextricably tied into violence, then, there might be some questions raised when it is not a demon, but a human or humanoid; perhaps it is as simple as an 80s film, and in this fiction, by opposing the protagonist, they must be put to the sword. Or perhaps not.

I keep circling around to this issue because I am torn between competing impulses; on the one hand, D&D is a game, and a fiction. It is fun and escapist. To sit around and spend all my time wondering about the morality of killing kobolds seems about as sensible as worrying about the ethics of capitalism while playing Monopoly.

...and yet, maybe there is something about this underlying violence. I am certainly less comfortable blithely ignoring the issue completely than I was. I am just uncertain what, if anything, there is to do.

I thought I'd start a thread to see what other people were thinking about this. Thoughts?

EDIT: Title edited to reflect we not murdering hobos.
on one hand d&d violence is on a very abstract level, some would criticize it as downplaying violence though, otoh violence is popular. If you grew up in the 80s and ever visited one of those stores where you could rent vcr video cassettes and you checked out those book sized covers of those tapes, you notice on every second at least , the main actor holds a gun in his hand.
and that popularity of violence did not change. But that does not matter, a grown up mature person can differentiate between fiction and RL, and that's the whole point.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
At my table we rarely attack humanoids (orcs, goblins) first. We'll almost always hold action to see what they do, or try to negotiate, or bluff, or whatever.

In another game, a few years ago, we had an orc prisoner who we questioned (this was in The One Ring, not 5e). Afterwards we had this big debate about what to do with him. Finally we gave him the option of a one-on-one fight with my character, saying that if he won he could go free.

(He accepted, but partway through the fight, when he realized he was going to lose, he threw his shield in my face and ran for it. He rolled well, we all rolled poorly, and he got away.)

But, that aside, it was my favorite solution yet to the "now what do we do with the prisoner" problem.
 

What are some recommendations for RPGs that don't use combat as the primary mechanism of conflict resolution or interacting with the world? A comparison and contrast between those and D&D, and the tropes that emerge from those differing styles of mechanical resolution, might be a worthwhile venture.
 

Stormonu

Legend
For years I had players whose characters would linger in a dungeon to be sure they looted every room and killed every monster.
I made one change, and that behavior stopped. I started awarding large chunks of XP for completing story-based goals and quests - regardless HOW the players overcame the challenge.

Don't get me wrong, there's times when I get into a D&D game and want to go all Diablo on some monsters. But I also enjoy when I can complete an encounter without having to engage in combat.
 

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