D&D 5E Warlock trading hit dice/hit points for spell slots?

[Umbran]

I am also of the opinion that the Warlock is perhaps a little underpowered and giving them this ability wouldn't unduly unbalance the class.

Just kind of spitballing, here, wondering what you folks think.

I'm thinking that, in the game I'm playing in, the warlock, despite not actually being a violent personality, consistently does more damage than either of the other two characters, so I'm not so sure about the under-poweredness...

I would not have much against spending hit dice for bennies, across all the classes. Seems like a reasonable mechanic.

 

[Kurotowa]

I'm thinking that, in the game I'm playing in, the warlock, despite not actually being a violent personality, consistently does more damage than either of the other two characters, so I'm not so sure about the under-poweredness...

My take is that the Warlock has a higher floor and lower ceiling than many classes. If everyone's using the simple obvious character builds then the Warlock weighs in fairly high, but if the group starts using the really polished character optimization tricks then they start to fall behind.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

No offense, but this is one of the least-balanced ideas I've ever heard. Hit Dice exist for a reason, and that reason is to ensure that everyone on the team can make it through at least two encounters in a day, no matter how badly they get stomped in the first one.

If you give someone the option of spending Hit Dice in order to throw more Fireballs, then in addition to the power upgrade they get from the extra Fireballs, those Hit Dice are no longer serving their original purpose. And if they aren't doing what they're supposed to do, then there's no reason for them to exist.

Do you remember the lesson of Divine Metamagic?

 

[Raduin711]

Do you remember the lesson of Divine Metamagic?

You may have to enlighten me on that one.

 

[jgsugden]

As with all things: I advise not trying to change anything until you've played it at the table for at least 40 hours of play.

Warlocks, for the love of Patrons, are NOT UNDERPOWERED.

7th level. Assume 1 SR between LRs. You get 4 4th level spells. How many do the cleric and wizard get? 1 … maybe 2.

'But Warlocks only get a couple of spells per LRs and they run out of slots!'

Yes, but spells are the vast majority of the pure spellcaster classes and Warlocks have an entire other set of abilities in invocations - some of which can be used an unlimited number of times, while others are like having extra competitive attuned items. I've played multiple Warlocks for many sessions each - pure warlocks without multiclass - and they have always been fun and effective.

Hexblade Human Variant with Great Weapon Mastery. He used Hex and Armor of Agathys most of the time when Dungeon Delving. When he eventually found a rod of the pact keeper, he'd toss in one more spell here and there. He was a strong ranged PC, a powerhouse melee PC, and when in the city, he had a variety of social spells at his beck and call that made him very effective for intrigue and negotiation. He is a top contender for my most enjoyable 5E PC.

Half-elven Archfey Pact Tome Warlock. He was the Jack of All Trades with all the rituals you could ever want. His Eldritch Blast was fully pimped out by mid-levels, allowing him to be effective at range even when he didn't want to use a spell, but he often began a combat with one spell before turning to the blasts. He had a lot of versatility as well.

Glasya Tiefling Great Old One Chain Warlock. A few racial spells gave him a bit of extra oomph in the spellcasting department. This one began at 12th level, but when he sort of retired at 18th level, he'd been insanely fun. He was never starved for spells, however, as he started beyond 11th level where they get more spells.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

You may have to enlighten me on that one.

Back in the 3.5 era, clerics had the ability to Turn Undead, which they could use about four times per day (based on their Charisma). Nobody really cared about it, because the mechanics for turning undead meant it was kind of a waste of your action, and most games don't have a ton of undead anyway. It was technically a limited resource, but it was practically irrelevant.

That all changed when they introduced rules for Divine Metamagic, which allowed you to spend your Turn Undead attempts to apply metamagic effects to your spells, without needing to cast them in a higher-level slot. Instead of using a level 8 spell slot to Maximize your Flame Strike, you could spend some Turn Undead attempts in order to cast a Maximized Flame Strike in a level 5 spell slot. (Which you could do as a level 9 character, long before anyone even had access to level 8 spell slots). And just like that, Turn Undead became a valuable resource, which clerics could use to become even stronger than they already were.

The proposed rule is similar, albeit less egregious. If the warlock doesn't really care about Hit Dice, for whatever reason (maybe there's a cleric in the party who can heal them for free, or maybe their AC is high enough that they just aren't getting hit much), then this added rule would let them turn that extraneous resource into a valuable one.

It's possible that Hit Dice are extremely valuable resources in your campaign, even though I've never seen such a situation in the past. If that's the case, though, then the warlock probably won't want to make the trade; and if the warlock doesn't want to engage with this mechanic, then what's the benefit of adding it to the system?

 

[Raduin711]

The proposed rule is similar, albeit less egregious. If the warlock doesn't really care about Hit Dice, for whatever reason (maybe there's a cleric in the party who can heal them for free, or maybe their AC is high enough that they just aren't getting hit much), then this added rule would let them turn that extraneous resource into a valuable one.

It's possible that Hit Dice are extremely valuable resources in your campaign, even though I've never seen such a situation in the past. If that's the case, though, then the warlock probably won't want to make the trade; and if the warlock doesn't want to engage with this mechanic, then what's the benefit of adding it to the system?

Thats why I thought of puttng a limit on the number of transactions... at lower levels a hit die is a fairly valuable resource, but so is a spell slot. At higher levels the hit die cost is mostly flavor at that point, and the number of transactions allowed becomes the true limiting factor. Admittedly this amounts to just handing the warlock a few more spell slots but that's not a big deal by my estimation. It still has the flavor that warlocks are paying for the magic, which is the point of the exercise... not to see how much I can make the warlock sweat.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Thats why I thought of puttng a limit on the number of transactions... at lower levels a hit die is a fairly valuable resource, but so is a spell slot. At higher levels the hit die cost is mostly flavor at that point, and the number of transactions allowed becomes the true limiting factor. Admittedly this amounts to just handing the warlock a few more spell slots but that's not a big deal by my estimation. It still has the flavor that warlocks are paying for the magic, which is the point of the exercise... not to see how much I can make the warlock sweat.

If you just want to give the warlock more spell slots at high levels, you can do that without compromising the Hit Dice mechanic at all. Just give them more slots.

The only thing you really get from this is the flavor, but honestly, I'm not sure how much of that even comes through. The designers have done an extremely thorough job of divorcing Hit Points from anything to do with health or life or blood, and Hit Dice are even more abstract than that. What are you really sacrificing, that is worth the power to kill an entire enemy party, but which you'll recover fully within two days?

 

[Remathilis]

No, it's definitely not okay. Hence why Warlock should not be a playable class.

But that's a discussion for another thread.

While we're at it, let's toss the berserker, assassin, necromancer (and appropriate spells), and shadow monk in there too.

Probably not a bad idea to put the half-orc, drow and tiefling there too.

 

[Pauln6]

Would the cost of an invocation be an acceptable trade off for this kind of mechanic? Such as:

Once per turn when you inflict damage with a spell you can spend 1HD to inflict an additional 1d8 (or 2d8 like a paladin?) necrotic damage. If you have at least 8 temporary hit points, you can use your action to spend 8 temporary hit points to regain 1 Warlock HD. Once you have used your action to regain a hit die in this fashion, you cannot do so again until you have completed a short or long rest.

Edit: Thinking about it, it might be sensible to avoid further damage stacking on Eldritch Blast. Maybe limiting it to "When you inflict fire or necrotic damage with a spell... An additional 1D8 fire AND 1D8 necrotic damage."

That way it plays into the life draining qualities of blackflame, but increases damage of a type that is often resisted/immune. Gives firebolt a boost for Tomelocks. Gives a boost to a spell like investiture of flame. It gives a limited nova ability akin to paladins.