D&D (2024) We have Arcane, Divine, and Primal lists now. Why not Psionic?

[Yaarel]

I don't think a Psionicist should pick Psionic spells the same way other Magic wielders do so.

This has more to do with the difference between psionic classes. One class has class features that are psionic, like the Psi Warrior. An other class manifests spells by means of ability checks, maybe actual skill checks. An other class manifiests spells by means of spell slots, like the Psion. The class decides the mechancis, not the source.

The same is true for any source. A Barbarian might be Primal without any spell casting mechanic.

 

[Shardstone]

So, I'm aware that there's not a lot of commonality between different fans for Psionics, it's one of the problems with it. But, for me, I tend to balk a bit at Psionics as just spells ... or more that I don't think a Psionicist should pick Psionic spells the same way other Magic wielders do so.

While it wasn't quite there, I was a fan of the UA Mystic, and the main thing I think it got right was packaging a their "spells" and abilities into Disciplines. That's what a Psionicist is to me, my Psion or Mystic doesn't learn the Shield spell, but they learn the "Telekinetic Barriers Discipline" that grants them Shield and Wall of Force, and such. So, for that reason, a Psionic Spell list is also not necessary, but also not what I'm looking for from a Psion. Psionics should have something more like ability trees in CRPGs.

What a great and simple idea.

 

[Aldarc]

Also, because there are a lot of us who despise psionics as a concept and don’t want that 70s soft sci-fi BS anywhere near our DnD (raises hand).

Psionics is a trigger word for me when it comes to DnD. I played 1e.

D&D had robots and crashed spaceships from a very early stage, as a result of its influence from pulp science-fantasy like Vance and Zelazny, and you're complaining about psionics as sci-fi BS near your D&D? Puh-leze.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Ah. Yeah.

Heh. I wish I could fill out a survey about those stupid, stupid, spell components!

And yet they are one of the most ignorable things in the game, right up there with encumbrance. I would imagine you are already ignoring them right now.

So why does it matter then that the game includes them for the 17 people across the globe who actually use them? Or includes equipment weights for the 23 people who use encumbrance? They literally serve a purpose for only a tiny percentage of the gaming populace and could not be any easier to strip out for those who don't want to use them. So keeping them in the game is fine... having a Psionic spell list that uses spells that include spell components is fine... making new Psionic spells that include spell components so that they are equal and balanced against the spells already in the game is also fine.

Because any players who don't want Psionic classes to use spell components can just ignore them. Like the other 99% of us who already do for even our non-Psionic classes.

 

[Parmandur]

So why does it matter then that the game includes them for the 17 people across the globe who actually use them? Or includes equipment weights for the 23 people who use encumbrance? They literally serve a purpose for only a tiny percentage of the gaming populace and could not be any easier to strip out for those who don't want to use them. So keeping them in the game is fine

I agree with your point that they are easy enough to ignore, but I see no real reason to suspect thst either Components or Encumbrance are actually ignored by "most" players. I do tend to suspect that people who complain about caster imbalance might be ignoring them, but the rules are sound and flavorful as is.

 

[Aldarc]

And yet they are one of the most ignorable things in the game, right up there with encumbrance. I would imagine you are already ignoring them right now.

So why does it matter then that the game includes them for the 17 people across the globe who actually use them? Or includes equipment weights for the 23 people who use encumbrance? They literally serve a purpose for only a tiny percentage of the gaming populace and could not be any easier to strip out for those who don't want to use them. So keeping them in the game is fine... having a Psionic spell list that uses spells that include spell components is fine... making new Psionic spells that include spell components so that they are equal and balanced against the spells already in the game is also fine.

Because any players who don't want Psionic classes to use spell components can just ignore them. Like the other 99% of us who already do for even our non-Psionic classes.

I would still potentially bake something into the class, if it's a ribbon ability precisely for these people who play at tables where these things aren't ignored. However, I would probably make the ability to ignore spell components a gradual process that psions learn how to do as they progress in levels.

 

[SkidAce]

Also, because there are a lot of us who despise psionics as a concept and don’t want that 70s soft sci-fi BS anywhere near our DnD (raises hand).

Psionics is a trigger word for me when it comes to DnD. I played 1e.

We come from the same era, but this is one of the few areas I dont agree with you on (still respect yah).

My games have always embraced the SF stuff, likely as a result of reading Marion Zimmer Bradley, and other genres of that type.

Fantasy medieval worlds built on the bones of post apocalyptic worlds. Saberhagen even had a series where nuclear explosions from WWIII turned into demons as the mass detonations altered the reality and physics of the world.

And of course, Glantri (if you know you know).

Specifically psionics was "treated" as possible and scientific, magic was something else. (but thats a dissertation for another day).

Game on friends!

 

[DEFCON 1]

I agree with your point that they are easy enough to ignore, but I see no real reason to suspect thst either Components or Encumbrance are actually ignored by "most" players. I do tend to suspect that people who complain about caster imbalance might be ignoring them, but the rules are sound and flavorful as is.

There is literally no way any of us (including WotC) can tell, so yes you could be correct. I will grant you the possibility.

But just based upon my own instincts and what I've seen, I personally believe less than one table out of every one hundred actually worry about encumbrance-- in fact I'm willing to bet there are more tables that have a Bags of Holding as one of their magic items introduced into the campaign (so that they can ignore encumbrance even more) that there are tables to who actually track equipment weights and encumbrance.

And the same sort of numbers I believe holds true for spell components-- everyone takes holy symbols and component pouches to ignore material components anyway, few tables actually worry about hand-switching equipment so that they can have hands free to use somatic components, and the only time Verbal components ever get brought up is when someone is Hiding and the DM wants to get frisky about "Oh, you can't cast a Verbal spell when Hiding"... or someone is stuck within a Silence spell. Other than that, I believe few tables bother with any of it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I would still potentially bake something into the class, if it's a ribbon ability precisely for these people who play at tables where these things aren't ignored. However, I would probably make the ability to ignore spell components a gradual process that psions learn how to do as they progress in levels.

I'd be fine with it if WotC introduced methods for ridding Psionics of components. They've done it for the Sorcerer, so no reason Psionic classes couldn't have the same sort of thing. But to me it's a "nice to have" feature written into the game, not a "MUST HAVE! GAME IS BROKEN OTHERWISE!" feature. Because again, people can simply ignore components anyway.

 

[Parmandur]

And the same sort of numbers I believe holds true for spell components-- everyone takes holy symbols and component pouches to ignore material components anyway, few tables actually worry about hand-switching equipment so that they can have hands free to use somatic components, and the only time Verbal components ever get brought up is when someone is Hiding and the DM wants to get frisky about "Oh, you can't cast a Verbal spell when Hiding"... or someone is stuck within a Silence spell. Other than that, I believe few tables bother with any of it.

I can only go off of what I've played and seen in stuff like actually plays. My entire experience has been that of taking the Spell Components very seriously (and using focuses for low cost Material componentsis part of the system), and Matt Mercer on Critical Role is a huge stickler about them, almoat as much as the WotC actual plays. And that has to be the single biggest influence on newer DMs...