D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

[pemerton]

If you feel immersed in checkers while playing poker, then I guess I can't dispute your claim. I'll consider you a bit deranged, however.

You may very well be HIGHLY immersed in what you are doing. But you are not immersed in doing THIS THING while you are actively rejecting THIS THING. I don't care what label you accept or reject for THIS THING.

I am claiming it is impossible to be immersed in something you are not doing.

<snip>

It is untrue and ridiculous to claim you can be immersed in something that you are actively rejecting doing.

The post not far upthread from [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] has prompted me to pick out and respond to these particular quotes.

I think it is self-evident that a person cannot be immersed in something that s/he is not doing. But I have no idea how that is apposite to the discussion.

The THING, in respect of which immersion is being discussed, is playing a character in an RPG. You said that "If you as a player have powers that your character can not have then it is ipso facto true that you are not immersed in "being that character"."

That is the claim that I reject. The claim may be true for some players (eg you and those you play with). But it is not universally true, which is how it was stated.

There are some players of RPGs who can be immersed in "being a character" although they, as players, have powers that their characters do not and cannot have in the gameworld. I know this because I have witnessed such immersion in others and have experienced it myself.

For completeness: I do not reject "being immersed in being a character." All I reject is the claim that a necessary condition of this, for all RPGers, is that the player not have and exercise powers that the character does not and cannot have.

 

[SirAntoine]

Player authorship can create more competitiveness, and it can be a distraction.

 

[Hussar]

Player authorship can create more competitiveness, and it can be a distraction.

How does it do that?

 

[SirAntoine]

How does it do that?

Very quickly, it can get everyone to out-author each other.

 

[pemerton]

it can get everyone to out-author each other.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

For instance, if I am playing a character and have the ability, 1x/session, to declare that a friendly NPC is ready to greet my PC in the next town, how is that going to lead to "out-authoring"? What does "out-authoring" even mean?

If another player has the ability, 1x/session, to declare that a friendly NPC is ready to greet his/her PC deep in the woods, then I can see that there might be disagreement over whether it is better for the two of us to have our PCs head to the woods or to the town, but that is no different than a similar disagreement that might break out if one of us was playing a druid and the other a thief.

 

[SirAntoine]

I don't understand what you mean by this.

For instance, if I am playing a character and have the ability, 1x/session, to declare that a friendly NPC is ready to greet my PC in the next town, how is that going to lead to "out-authoring"? What does "out-authoring" even mean?

If another player has the ability, 1x/session, to declare that a friendly NPC is ready to greet his/her PC deep in the woods, then I can see that there might be disagreement over whether it is better for the two of us to have our PCs head to the woods or to the town, but that is no different than a similar disagreement that might break out if one of us was playing a druid and the other a thief.

If you don't think you'd notice, I guess it wouldn't be a problem for your group. The potential problem is one of escalation as players key in to what they can do. If the player authorship is just added background, that would be one thing, but to give any sort of advantage it would be a recourse in place of adventure.

 

[pemerton]

If you don't think you'd notice, I guess it wouldn't be a problem for your group. The potential problem is one of escalation as players key in to what they can do. If the player authorship is just added background, that would be one thing, but to give any sort of advantage it would be a recourse in place of adventure.

I'm really not sure what sorts of mechanics you have in mind. Can you give examples?

When I think of player authorship, here are some examples that come to mind based on some of the RPGs I'm familiar with:

* A player gets to declare that nearby enemies are closing on his/her PC (4e's Come and Get It power);

* A player gets to make a die roll (as part of some mechanical subsystem) which, if successful, allows him/her to declare that s/he has a friend in this town ready to help (Burning Wheel's Circle mechanics is an example);

* A player gets to make a die roll (as part of some mechanical subsystem) which, if successful, allows him/her to declare some bit of campaign backstory to be such-and-such (Burning Wheel knowledge skills ("Wises") are like this, and in my 4e game we have used that system's knowledge skills like this from time to time);

* A player wants to throw a rock and is entitled to declare that - in the absence of any established fiction to the contrary - that a rock can be found on the ground underfoot; or (say if playing The Hulk in a superhero game) is entitled to declare the existence of a streetlight so s/he can describe the character picking it up and using it to bash an enemy (Marvel Heroic RP calls the latter out as a standard part of the game).​

Each of these gives an advantage, although the advantage in the last case is fairly minimal - for instance, in MHRP if the streetlight is to give you a bonus to hit then you have to spend an action and make a check; and in D&D being able to find a rock to throw is not exactly powering up the typical PC.

In the case of the others, the advantage is no different from the advantage gained by using some non-player-authorship mechanic. For instance, Come and Get It is (in my view) no stronger than the 7th level wizard encounter power Twist of Space, which is an AoE hostile teleport. The latter ability has no "player authorship" dimension, because the player's decision as to where to teleport the affected enemies to corresponds to decisions made by the PC in casting the spell. But that doesn't have any bearing on the power level of the ability.

I can't think of any player authorship ability in the RPGs I'm familiar with that is more powerful, or more likely to be used to circumvent adventure, then the classic D&D Wish spell.

 

[SirAntoine]

I'm really not sure what sorts of mechanics you have in mind. Can you give examples?

When I think of player authorship, here are some examples that come to mind based on some of the RPGs I'm familiar with:

* A player gets to declare that nearby enemies are closing on his/her PC (4e's Come and Get It power);

* A player gets to make a die roll (as part of some mechanical subsystem) which, if successful, allows him/her to declare that s/he has a friend in this town ready to help (Burning Wheel's Circle mechanics is an example);

* A player gets to make a die roll (as part of some mechanical subsystem) which, if successful, allows him/her to declare some bit of campaign backstory to be such-and-such (Burning Wheel knowledge skills ("Wises") are like this, and in my 4e game we have used that system's knowledge skills like this from time to time);

* A player wants to throw a rock and is entitled to declare that - in the absence of any established fiction to the contrary - that a rock can be found on the ground underfoot; or (say if playing The Hulk in a superhero game) is entitled to declare the existence of a streetlight so s/he can describe the character picking it up and using it to bash an enemy (Marvel Heroic RP calls the latter out as a standard part of the game).​

Each of these gives an advantage, although the advantage in the last case is fairly minimal - for instance, in MHRP if the streetlight is to give you a bonus to hit then you have to spend an action and make a check; and in D&D being able to find a rock to throw is not exactly powering up the typical PC.

In the case of the others, the advantage is no different from the advantage gained by using some non-player-authorship mechanic. For instance, Come and Get It is (in my view) no stronger than the 7th level wizard encounter power Twist of Space, which is an AoE hostile teleport. The latter ability has no "player authorship" dimension, because the player's decision as to where to teleport the affected enemies to corresponds to decisions made by the PC in casting the spell. But that doesn't have any bearing on the power level of the ability.

I can't think of any player authorship ability in the RPGs I'm familiar with that is more powerful, or more likely to be used to circumvent adventure, then the classic D&D Wish spell.

I wasn't thinking of any mechanics. It sounds like there are some really creative games out there. I look forward to trying more games, and I am looking at Warhammer Fantasy and the One Ring now.

 

[pemerton]

I am looking at Warhammer Fantasy and the One Ring now.

I have the One Ring in PDF - there was a sale on recently on DriveThruRPG - but haven't properly looked at it yet. But I've heard (well, read) good things about it.

Which version of Warhammer? I heard the 3rd edition was a big departure from the earlier editions.

 

[SirAntoine]

I have the One Ring in PDF - there was a sale on recently on DriveThruRPG - but haven't properly looked at it yet. But I've heard (well, read) good things about it.

Which version of Warhammer? I heard the 3rd edition was a big departure from the earlier editions.

It's the 3rd Edition, I believe. I want the core set, which contains everything you need, but I may buy the Player's Guide first. Both this game and the One Ring are among the highest rated games I've seen. The One Ring is essentially perfect to many reviewers, and Tolkien fans can be very particular. The 3rd Edition of Warhammer Fantasy has caught my eye with its blend of unique dice and cards.