D&D 3E/3.5 what book are 3.5 forsakers in?

[Three_Haligonians]

Forsaker's and the Vow of Poverty

It should be quickly mentioned that a Forsaker must also decline the use of Spell-Like and Supernatural Abilities. The Vow of Poverty grants a couple of these: its Damage Reduction and its Deflection bonus, the Exalted Strike and the True Seeing to be exact.

If you think what is left is worth it (and I can honestly see how one might) then feel free, I'm just pointing out that they don't mesh perfectly.

Oh.. I should add that I support Crothian and all; I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the PrC for much of the same reasons.

J from Three Haligonians

 

[vexare]

Having recently played a forsaker, I think the class is very playable in the low to mid levels. It is one of the easiest classes to get into, a first level human fighter could qualify. If you enter at level 2 the Dr is likely not going to be overcome too much, and scales up to 11/+5 at char lvl 11 which is pretty dang beefy. Not to mention the roughly 50/50 chance spells will be voided by your SR, which STACKS with other spell resistance if you can find some other class/race that grants it. stackable SR means you will likely never be hit by a spell again. Con to ac as well as a total of +10 to your stats. biggest downside is the fast healing is capped per day at 50. The class has serious difficulties in its teen levels however as mundane things like flight, travel (especially extraplanar) become very very difficult if not imposible. He may not be able to do anything fancy, but in a straight up melee with any other warrior he is likely going to win.

 

[gabrion]

Ya, I guess the VoP would lose a few things, but I'm guessing the combo would still come out ahead.

@Three Haligonians-Just for you...

 

[gabrion]

Having recently played a forsaker, I think the class is very playable in the low to mid levels. It is one of the easiest classes to get into, a first level human fighter could qualify. If you enter at level 2 the Dr is likely not going to be overcome too much, and scales up to 11/+5 at char lvl 11 which is pretty dang beefy. Not to mention the roughly 50/50 chance spells will be voided by your SR, which STACKS with other spell resistance if you can find some other class/race that grants it. stackable SR means you will likely never be hit by a spell again. Con to ac as well as a total of +10 to your stats. biggest downside is the fast healing is capped per day at 50. The class has serious difficulties in its teen levels however as mundane things like flight, travel (especially extraplanar) become very very difficult if not imposible. He may not be able to do anything fancy, but in a straight up melee with any other warrior he is likely going to win.

Not that I'm one of the folks who says they are worthless....wait, maybe I am...but anyway, I'm not clear on how they could be a better combatant then a cleric. I'm really curious to here what they get that other characters can't replicate with magic in a more efficient manner. You are onto something when you point out the very low levels, since characters don't get powerful magic at those levels, but other than that they can't reall stack up.

I just said this cause I thought everyone accepted the fact that Forsakers are undepowered and that they are only really good for RPing. Is someone out there still trying to make an argument for them numbers wise?

 

[Storyteller01]

A low magic grim and gritty campaign setting you mean?

Works for me! What's the point of playing if magic solves all your problems for you?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Works for me! What's the point of playing if magic solves all your problems for you?

Mainly when it solves the problems that are tedious to otherwise solve for the 100th time, are otherwise going to end up as a wasted session, or are detrimental to any kind of ongoing story you are trying to lay out. That's why magic pretty quickly covers food and drink, encumberance, crossing holes in the ground (lava-filled or otherwise), heat exhaustion and healing and resurrection. Having to account for food and drink and encumberance is mind-numbingly tedious. It's not what you play D&D for. Describing to the DM for the 50th time how you cross yet another pit in a hallway is tedious. Working out how many days the party will rest for after a fight is pretty tedious. Making 24 saves each and every day is tedious (heat exhaustion). Losing a pivotal character with lots of story threads destroys the story.

So magic is used to fix all that. The default assumption is that magic is there to fix these problems. Drop magic without making any adjustments, and all of a sudden your days will be filled with accounting, dropped stories, endless saving throws and the 50th pit trap where the characters give in and dive down head first in a desperate attempt to end it all. Except the forsaker, who apparently likes that sort of game...

 

[Crothian]

You have games were dieing coming back becomes tedious??? Yoiu've obviously never dropped magic from your game if you truely think that is the way the game turns out.

 

[Storyteller01]

Mainly when it solves the problems that are tedious to otherwise solve for the 100th time, are otherwise going to end up as a wasted session, or are detrimental to any kind of ongoing story you are trying to lay out. That's why magic pretty quickly covers food and drink, encumberance, crossing holes in the ground (lava-filled or otherwise), heat exhaustion and healing and resurrection. Having to account for food and drink and encumberance is mind-numbingly tedious. It's not what you play D&D for. Describing to the DM for the 50th time how you cross yet another pit in a hallway is tedious. Working out how many days the party will rest for after a fight is pretty tedious. Making 24 saves each and every day is tedious (heat exhaustion). Losing a pivotal character with lots of story threads destroys the story.

So magic is used to fix all that. The default assumption is that magic is there to fix these problems. Drop magic without making any adjustments, and all of a sudden your days will be filled with accounting, dropped stories, endless saving throws and the 50th pit trap where the characters give in and dive down head first in a desperate attempt to end it all. Except the forsaker, who apparently likes that sort of game...

It's not as tedious as you believe. A decent Ranger can pretty much feed the group. A DM can just as easily say 'shell out X per day you plan to be travelling'. Don't bother with the fatigue/exhaustion until supplies run out (ie: the party travels longer than they have supplies for). If a party can keep track of the gold they spend on taverns and magic items, why is this so hard?

As for random encounters, if you don't want them, DON'T USE THEM!. When you read a story, how often does an author roll to see who the characters meet next? If it doesn't enhance the game, don't bother with it.

How often is encumberance really a problem? Unless your a carrying extreme amounts or are incredibly weak, carrying basic survival neccessities (blanket, torches, tools, backpack, flint, rope, etc) isn't much of a problem. Even a fighter in full armor can carry them. Mounts all but negate this as an issue.

If a party found a way to solve a problem previously, assume that they will do the same if they have the equipment. How different is that from a spellcaster saying 'I cast Fly'? Both have something equipped and ready, both assume that if it worked the first time, it'll work next time (providing similar circumstances). If your wizard is scrying and planning ahead, why aren't the other players preparing?

You'd be surprised how resourceful a party can be when they realize that magical healing isn't immediately available.

What were the characters doing before they started adventuring?

To each their own...

 

[Storyteller01]

So if anyone is arguing for an update, just think about what the VoP monk/forsaker could potentially do to a game. LOL...normally you have to force a forsaker to come along with the party via magical transportation, with this guy you would probably all get a beat down instead!

So now a monk can actually compete!! (j/k)

 

[ThirdWizard]

Works for me! What's the point of playing if magic solves all your problems for you?

I've had bad experiences with low magic grim & gritty gameplay. In the DM's defense it was his first campaign, and he did fairly well considering. But, still I doubt I could do it again anytime soon. Like playing a healer. Never again. ^^;