• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E What direction should 5th edition take?

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Remember, pre 3e, magic wasn't nearly as powerful thanks to rarity (no cheap magic items to get around the sot limitation meant even a 20th level mage only had 4 3rd level slots- Definitely NOT casting Fly wily nily on his party)

A 9th level Mage could craft scrolls or potions of Fly. Having such items was not impossible, even in 2nd edition.

Note: I do agree with people that 3E went overboard with spells. However, I also think the overreaction of 4E in nerfing spells (especially non-damaging spells) also went overboard. There are many solutions to problems that are basically impossible in 4E. Fighter goes down and you want to pull him out of combat on a Floating Disk? Sorry, you forgot to cast that ritual this morning. You cannot have a scroll of it in your back pocket.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

keterys

First Post
Completely agree that I'd like to see rituals and non-combat threatening magic a lot easier...

I don't want to see people flying all over the place like it's nothing (as much as I remember many a dnd game where everyone in the party flew, whenever they wanted). I actually don't see why it would be bad to give a couple of these Sorc powers to the Wizard if you're just looking for that. Or the level 10 spellscarred flight utility. Whatever really. Short term flight is good stuff. All the time flight bad.
 

Instead of making all the classes like wizards, they should make them all like sorcerers.

Give them a pool of options and a pool of times they can use them.

As someone said get rid of dailies (except maybe for wizards/clerics.)

Make it so you don't swap out things you can do for other things. I don't want to forget how to do something. It doesn't really make me more powerful if I can still do a level 3 daily. As long as I keep to a maximum amount of dailies used per day.

Basically, I have a ton of possible powers, I have the ablility to do these powers 5 times an encounter. If I want to I should be able to use the same encounter power 5 times in that encounter. If it gets repetative then that is my fault for not mixing it about more.

A lot more at-wills. Why just 2? Perhaps we should get more at-wills as we level, just like encounters and dailies. 30 levels of the same at-wills is dull.
 

keterys

First Post
If I want to I should be able to use the same encounter power 5 times in that encounter. If it gets repetative then that is my fault for not mixing it about more.

No... it's the system's fault for making repeating use of a power worthwhile. Or possible.

A lot more at-wills. Why just 2? Perhaps we should get more at-wills as we level, just like encounters and dailies. 30 levels of the same at-wills is dull.

I agree there, though I'd say earlier is better than later, cause earlier is when you actually need them most.

Though it'd be nice aesthetically to get another at 11th and 21st.
 

I've noticed a few things here I'd like to comment on.

Someone mentioned just doing away with the limit on healing surges. That won't work. The problem is that the vast majority of encounters can be overcome without using dailies. Sure, you may use an AP, but those are reasonably renewable and while they are VERY useful you can certainly get by on one every other encounter. If you just get rid of HS then every encounter which isn't highly dangerous is just a joke. The players will simply bull their way through it and build their characters with a high number of healing powers so they can be sure of getting through pretty much every combat with SOME hit points. Take a short rest, get your HP back, heck you can take on LIMITLESS numbers of easy to moderate encounters and still be at top power.

So there MUST be a way besides dailies to cut into the party's resources. Very low level characters aside (where pretty much every combat is dangerous) this has to exist. It could be recast from the current HS system as I've suggested earlier in this thread, or by other similar means, but it has to exist.

The problem with magic in ALL previous editions of D&D was twofold. First of all there were far too many "plot buster" powers, and they were available at much too low a level. The game would have been vastly improved had these sorts of powers at the very least been higher level. And I mean stuff as basic as Charm Person. Imagine what someone who could do that in the real world could do? It should be something accessible only to a very powerful character because used AT ALL competently it is a very powerful ability. Instead of dropping plot busters all over the low level spell lists in earlier editions and then giving wizards/M.U.s/whatever a tiny number of daily-only powers they should have given them more powers that were a lot less plot busting at low level. Basically this is what 4e did.

The second issue was the "logic of magic" which inevitably says that magic is something beyond what can be accomplished in the real world, and thus just by the very fact that it is magic it takes on too high a degree of versatility. Again, part of the answer is to limit that versatility. The most basic means of doing so is to make the effects of magic transitory. Again, this is what 4e did.

ALWAYS I see the people criticizing the 4e handling of magic just discounting rituals without actually discussing them. "Oh, my players just don't bother with that. Its too expensive." That isn't a valid criticism. Just because players are ignoring a part of the rules that would give them what they wanted if they just paid attention to it is not the fault of the game system. Its either the player's own fault or somehow they're being discouraged from using all their abilities.

Check out this thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...r-vale-emergent-features-keep-shadowfell.html and note how large a role ritual magic plays in this game. Its not specially pointed out, but there are dozens of examples of the PCs using rituals and doing so to great effect. Just do it. Encourage your players to do it. Talk to them about it, have NPCs do it and gain advantages from it. Have monsters do it and see how much it hurts when the party ignores it. And I'm sorry I just don't buy the cost argument. Sure, plot buster type ritual magic is expensive, but that's to discourage it from being used in every single situation where it might come in handy like it was in every earlier edition.

Lets look at the logic WRT flight. Overland flight, and even medium duration "tactical" flight is a bit of a plot buster. It inherently lets players bypass things or get into places in ways that are very difficult to thwart. It is in fact a PITA for the DM. Short duration tactical flight OTOH is just a nice thing to have and really is not much different from being able to teleport a short distance. Sure, the ceiling may be low, but then you don't use your flying in that encounter! In the next encounter it will come in handy, etc. Same for teleporting, sometimes its hugely useful, and sometimes its barely useful at all or even useless. Each one has slight advantages and disadvantages, but they pretty much balance out.

Another thing with 4e, and this I'm not saying is good or bad, is that it differentiates much more in the types of abilities that are available at different levels. Heroic tier characters just aren't intended in 4e to be spending all their time doing a lot of supermundane stuff. Its more reserved for paragon tier. And its not really fair to say "I could do X at level 9 in 3e but I can't do that till level 15 in 4e" because basically 9th level in 3.x is pretty similar to 15th level in 4e. Each level is a smaller increment of power and more quickly gained (especially the higher levels) than they were in older editions. In 2e it would take a 12th level PC dozens of significant encounters to make 13th level. 4e is designed to reward players more often but in slightly smaller increments. Look at the differences even between 1st and 3rd level in 4e, they just aren't THAT big, and that's the part of the game with the largest power increments per level. In 2e the gap between 1st and 3rd level is huge, and the same in 3e.

There are certainly many things that could be improved in 4e, like any system. I can relate to the observations about powers focusing a bit too much on damage for example. I do think though that a lot of complaints are based on a rather insufficient analysis of the game as a whole.
 

eriktheguy

First Post
I think I agree with Abdul that flight was allowed far too often in 3e (I believe a level 5 wizard with some money was allowed pretty much unrestricted flight). I disagree that short term tactical flight is game breaking. If a wizard gets somewhere you didn't expect because of a short burst of flight, they deserve the reward (and a thumbs up). They shouldn't be able to do it too often, but players can often skip entire segments of challenge by using magic abilities and I don't see it as game breaking up to a certain point.
I wouldn't mind wizards getting anytime flight around level 11 either. I'm guessing that the challenges they meet at those points are capable of dealing with aerial assailants, defending castles from aerial assualts, etc. A level paragon tier wizard flying around is not much of a stretch.

I want to emphasize that the main point I agree with in this thread is the differentiation of powers by class. The sameness in this edition is very apparent. Karinsdad focuses on wizards who can only do damage with extra minor effects. In 3e 'dominating' a monster meant that the fight was essentially over. In 4e when you dominate a dragon, it means that you deal some psychic damage and get to make it attack for a turn (and you can't even use its breath weapon). I think that in 3e you could do too much with many spells but that in 4e you can do too little.

I have always been comfortable with fighters being a solid DPS class while wizards concentrated their pizazz into a few shots that turned the tide of battle. 4e was an improvement because fighters are now much more versatile, but wizards lack the showiness they used to have, basically they are ranged fighters with more area attacks and temporary (very temporary) debuffs.

Basically 'save or die' was too much, and 'take some damage, and save or get -2 ac' is too little. I'm hoping 5e will find a good compromise.

And I think starting with 4 or more at-wills is a terrific idea, as well as gaining more per tier. A new edition would need to have a larger pool of at-wills to choose from. At-wills available to any class, any martial class, any elf etc would be cool.
 

AllisterH

First Post
A 9th level Mage could craft scrolls or potions of Fly. Having such items was not impossible, even in 2nd edition.
.

But this ignores just how bloody difficult it WAS to create even a scroll (and this also assumes that a wizard actually has Fly. Remember how well, random spell acquisition could be for non-specialist mages? I think also that was one of the balancing issues in pre 3e. You weren't assured of being able to know pretty much all spells and thus be able to combine spells into an aggregate bigger than their parts and YES, we did play with the rule that for generalists, you got to choose _1_ spell at every spell level in 2e. Every other spell had to be captured from an enemy's spellbook)

As for FLY in 4e, total distance covered by a wizard is 4000 feet, which is roughly 3/4 of a mile/1.2 kilometers.

That beats down those other options seriously in terms of flexibility (length of over 10 football fields)
 

Hardly. I'm sorry if being new here and having an unoriginal opinion is new, but Gleemax was down for a week, so I started lurking here.

I wasn't insulting 4E (I am playing it and enjoying it, but that doesn't mean that I can't have my own opinions, no matter how many share them). Anyway, the topic of the thread is the direction of 5E, so I'd assume it's likely that "arguments" a year old may resurface.

I was not trying to stir up a battle (complaining about the lack of class diversity), I was trying to discuss whether there was a difference between classless and one class systems. Maybe I didn't do it *well*, but I'm neither a troll nor the sock-puppet of one.

People need to be more balanced. The fact that we are talking about what we would like in 5E means we are looking at 4E and deciding what we don't like about it. What about it we want changing, improving or dumping. Also what we liked about older editions or other systems that D&D could benefit from in the future.

If someone doesn't like criticism of 4E then I suggest they don't even look at this thread. This thread is not going to benefit from someone saying "4E is the best thing ever. I want 5E to be exactly the same as 4E." If that is what someone thinks then I can't think why they would even look at this thread in the first place.

I am personally getting tired of this "My God is the true God!" attitude from a few people. If that is your attitude then I don't see the point of coming on a forum that discusses 4E rules, fluff, design philosophies, houserules and problems. If all you want to do is go on a forum to pat each other on the back about how 4E is perfect they should just go on GLEEMAX.

I like D&D. The better it is the better.
 

I can understand the sentiment regarding spell casters, but even now in 4e a creative spell caster can really make a lot of mileage out magic. I kind of feel like if it went much further than it does now that we'd be pretty much right back where we were before. If someone has constructive suggestions on how to keep things balanced I'm all ears, but I just haven't heard any that I honestly thought were workable so far.

About flight I don't disagree with you eriktheguy, I think limited tactical flight is perfectly fine. I think other forms of flight can be perfectly fine too. In a sense it seems to me that what D&D, and for that matter other FRPGs I've played, have always lacked is an elegant way to allow these kinds of extraordinary abilities without presenting major issues on the story telling side. If you look at the source material of the fantasy genre you don't see wizards being the ultimate answer guy for everything. Unfortunately games aren't novels and GMs don't have the option of just writing the story however they want and ignoring the "We just ride the giant eagles to Mount Doom" problem. Players will fully exploit whatever abilities they have available to them and they will do it mercilessly and consistently.

After running my campaign under 4e for a year I've found it to be tremendously easier to tell a wide range of stories using it simply because of this. Sure, you can argue that anything was "possible" in earlier editions, but it was very awkward having to play the whack-a-mole game of trying to anticipate and nerf all the plot busters. It just got to be a bit silly when every time you wanted to make a place be hard to get into or a mystery hard to solve or a social situation hard to turn to your advantage you had to make up a laundry list of spells that would bypass the whole challenge and dream up some magic dodad explanation for why it wouldn't work or else tie yourself into knots trying to create a scenario that was resistant to all of that.

And frankly I just don't want to give up the relative equality of classes that 4e has. Just because wizards could pick every day from a giant list of spells doesn't make that the only way the game can work. If you do it for one class then by gosh you DO have to do it for all the rest. What do I tell my player that runs a fighter? "Well, you should have played a wizard if you actually wanted to be able to cherry pick the best power for the day every day"!!!!??? Huh? Why, because of some slavish adherence to a poorly designed game mechanic that was thought up in 1974? Give me a break! Oh, I could let the fighter pick every day too, but how do you explain that? It just doesn't make sense. OK, we could just take away all of the fighter's goodies, but that was a bad idea in 1974 and it was a bad idea in 2001 and its a bad idea in 2009. No amount of nostalgia or rationalizing will make it a good idea.
 

invokethehojo

First Post
I agree with De Ganis, if people discussing thier percieved down sides of 4e isn't your thing then don't post in this thread. I like 4e, but if I (and every person in here) felt obligated to be polite and explain all the things about 4e they like before discussing things it could improve upon this thread would be 48 pages long and no one would want to read it.

As far as class sameness and the wizard problem... that's a toughy. I liked in old editions how the classes all felt different from each other, but I also see that mechanics that revolve around 1 class only could be a problem. I liked how wizards have long spell lists, although I always thought that the fun of playing a wizard should be the stragegy of picking the right spell at the right time from your list, instead of being forced to memorize spells at the beginning of the day only to find you didn't memorize the right spell. It was great to cast shrink on a tree limb that an enemy was standing on firing arrows from so he falls and the fighter can go kill him, rather than casting a level 3 damage spell to kill him yourself.

In 4e wizards don't feel wizardy enough in my opinion, and it does have to do with the damage/minor effect problem. I don't have much love for rituals as written, I think that they could have designed these so they weren't a seperate mechanic, maybe you have a fly spell (low level just for one move action) and you cast a ritual or spend a daily or something to make it last longer... I'm not sure, but I think that by trying to make all classes use the same power system it made the classes feel less cool.

I don't dislike the at will/encounter/daily system, and I can see whey they balanced things the way they did. D&D is an ever evolving game, and the last few editions had a lot of game breaking elements, this system was able to defeat that for the most part, and that is great. I'm not sure if 5e should try to go back to having wizards be like they used to, or if that would only bring us back to the old problesm. Table top games have thier limits, and players will expoit things. Maybe customization could replace the old way of thinking, maybe if they eliminated classes all together, so that the average character has some magic and some other stuff and could choose... maybe that would help keep the cool feel of magic while not going back to the old uber wizard problem and there would be no classes to feel the same. I'm really not sure, just throwing ideas out there.
 

Remove ads

Top