Dragonlance [+] What do you like most about DRAGONLANCE?

Li Shenron

Legend
Goofy art, and cleptomaniac kenders.

Yes, kenders! But the key to make them work, is NOT allow PvP. Never let the kender player try to steal from the party and then use dice rolls to determine the outcome. Instead, make the players agree out-of-character if and when a kender attempts to steal from another PC, and if there is no agreement, then it just doesn't happen. The kender is still allowed to steal from NPCs and no problem using dice in that case.

Or, use more abstraction like the pocket ability in older UA articles (the very old one even better) to represent only the outcome of the kender's constant pilfering habits, without having to specify the victims.
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Goofy art, and cleptomaniac kenders.

Yes, kenders! But the key to make them work, is NOT allow PvP. Never let the kender player try to steal from the party and then use dice rolls to determine the outcome. Instead, make the players agree out-of-character if and when a kender attempts to steal from another PC, and if there is no agreement, then it just doesn't happen. The kender is still allowed to steal from NPCs and no problem using dice in that case.

Or, use more abstraction like the pocket ability in older UA articles (the very old one even better) to represent only the outcome of the kender's constant pilfering habits, without having to specify the victims.
I mean, we've evolved beyond having Thieves who pick pocket players and rob them blind. Surely, the Kender can come out of those dark days as well?
 

Remathilis

Legend
I gotta admit I'm following this mostly to see what others say. I never had a lot of experience with Dragonlance, I didn't read the novels and the limited amount of actual play I've had ended up dissolving into "kill the kender PC" rather quickly. But I've always been intrigued by what Dragonlance billed itself as: an epic romantic tale set against the backdrop of a Draconic holy war. Knights and maidens, wizards and priests, and lovable rogues all fighting the darkest villains the game could imagine. It was a place where being a hero was more important than being an adventurer. I'm not sure if any of that actually reflects what is in the setting, but it's how the limited amount of material I've been exposed to reflected it.

This being a (+) thread, I won't elaborate what has kept me from looking deeper into it. The short version is that I tend to feel Krynn changes D&D assumptions for no other reason than to be different, and in keeping with the design philosophy of the time was overly restricting on how and what you could play. I'm sure 3.5s version fixed a bunch of those problems and 5e will fix them more, but early opinions were formed in 2e where I found the setting tried really hard to keep a tight leash on what was or wasn't on Krynn.
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
To be fair, Forgotten Realms wasn't really supposed to be as bad as it became. I think we have Jeff Grubb to blame for stapling Kara-Tur, Zahkara, Maztica, and the Hordelands onto the Forgotten Realms.

Ed Greenwood used ancient gates to other planes simply as a way to explain all the "ancient magical empires" that were nothing but ruins now, and where most of the different races came from.

Now if you want "kitchen sink", take a look at Mystara, where you can have Roman City States parked right next to free trade cities ruled by Machiavellian merchant princes right next to impenetrable forest kingdoms of Elves...
 

Ixal

Hero
To be fair, Forgotten Realms wasn't really supposed to be as bad as it became. I think we have Jeff Grubb to blame for stapling Kara-Tur, Zahkara, Maztica, and the Hordelands onto the Forgotten Realms.

Ed Greenwood used ancient gates to other planes simply as a way to explain all the "ancient magical empires" that were nothing but ruins now, and where most of the different races came from.

Now if you want "kitchen sink", take a look at Mystara, where you can have Roman City States parked right next to free trade cities ruled by Machiavellian merchant princes right next to impenetrable forest kingdoms of Elves...
Even without the additional continents FR is in no way better.
Arthurian knights, ancient Egyptians, 1001 kingdoms, semi modern evil mageocracies next to backward barbarians, etc.
All without ever influencing each other technologically or socially.
 

Even without the additional continents FR is in no way better.
Arthurian knights, ancient Egyptians, 1001 kingdoms, semi modern evil mageocracies next to backward barbarians, etc.
All without ever influencing each other technologically or socially.
This is a misrepresentation of a rather cheap kind.

You claim there's no influence, but the FR, even back to grey box days clearly shows influences and interactions, and you're misrepresenting the actual factions too. There are no "Arthurian Knights". If you mean Cormyr it's a solidly late-medieval kingdom with a heavy bureaucracy, which indulges in mythmaking and is deeply self-regarding but is no more "Arthurian Knights" than RL France in the 1300s or 1400s was. The "ancient Egyptians" - the Mulhorandi - aren't actually ancient, they're just essentially aping older aesthetics and have an Egyptian-themed pantheon, but they use modern technologies, build modern buildings, and have a complicated history that does not, in fact, resemble ancient Egypt very much - you're confusing style with substance. Indeed their history involves significant interactions with other realms - 1/3rd of the human Mulhorandi descend from Thayan slaves, for example. I'm not aware of any "semi-modern evil mageocracies", presumably you intend this to be Thay? But they're not "semi-modern" any more than D&D realms or the FR in general is - if anything they're a backwards compared to The Sword Coast or Moonsea nations or the like. So that's just inaccurate. And what the "backward barbarians" are the Rashemi? Calling them "backwards barbarians" would be like calling the Cossacks "backwards barbarians", and declaring them "implausible", even though they actually existed. Culturally, they're clearly not "backwards barbarians", which is a lazy term anyway, but they're a smaller population living in a harsher landscape, one which isn't particularly built-up or full of cities for resource-related reasons.

I could go on.

And let's be clear:

The FR is not a "well-designed" or "well-conceived" setting. It doesn't feature good links and particularly plausible histories. The damage done in early-mid 2E by just jamming everything into it has never fully been recovered from.

If we're comparing it to Dragonlance, there's an issue. Anaslon and Taladas are opposites.

Anaslon has most of the same flaws as the FR but in many cases worse. The "plains barbarians" are basically a cheap Native American pastiche, but white people have been included as well as Native American ethnicity ones because, frankly, in that era in the US a lot of slightly hippy white people fetishized their perception of Native American cultures (this continues to this day in the South West). And all the other humans essentially seem to be from the same culture, in terms of behaviour, values, and so on, except as influenced by organisations they've joined. I guess there's the sea barbarians, where Black people get to get called "barbarians" (greeeeaaaat) and somehow are Jolly Pirates. I could go on, but arguing FR bad, Anaslon good here is er... at best kind of funny. The FR has a lot of flaws but it has a more plausible setup than Anaslon.

Taladas is a polar opposite. Zeb Cook was clearly really into history, particularly of some places and eras normally glossed over by D&D settings - The Steppes, Byzantium, The Pacific Rim, the "dark ages" (i.e. 400-900 AD), and has societies inspired in part by these and many others, as well as full-on fantasy societies like The Glass Sailors or the Hulderfolk. He also was keen to flip traditional/boring portrayals, with minotaurs running a WRE-equivalent (but a muscular and lively one, not a dying one), the violent, raiding Steppe Barbarians are mostly Elves/Half-Elves, there are relatively well-behaved and reasonable Ogres and Goblins (who are playable - the Bakali don't stray far from trad lizardmen, but make them playable too and they have a real culture), Tinker Gnomes who aren't morons, but a strange isolated steamtech culture obsessed with magma (because they live in/next-to a vast lake of it), depressive Kender, and so on. And there's a real sense of history. Everyone bears the scars of the Cataclysm in a way those on Anaslon do not. Many societies exist directly because of it - the Glass Sailors sail glass plains/deserts created by the blast, the Nylgai-Hadirnoe Scorned Dwarves avoid living underground because their society was all but wiped out by the Cataclysm, and so on. And there are societies with centuries of struggle, or societies that are the product of history, like the Armach-Nesti nation of Elves and humans, which is basically an apartheid state, where a slowly dying-out and inbred group of Silvanesti refugees of the Cataclysm, run a society with the increasingly energetic local humans, who they refuse to breed with (for the same reasons Tanis was shunned), but where the clear implication is, unless they do, their society is doomed.

A starker contrast in worldbuilding is hard to find. Zeb Cook took the ideas of Anaslon and ran with them to a far more interesting and varied place.

Thank you for coming to one of my recurring pro-Taladas TED Talks.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Heh. I'll freely admit, I'd gotten out of DL by the time Taladas was a thing. I know nothing about it.

But, I do think that the point of DL being a setting that was custom built for a specific campaign is true. All the stuff that got added later never really caught my attention the way the War of the Lance did. To me, Dragonlance=The War of the Lance. Everything else is just extra and not very important, IMO. If Taladas never existed, for example, I wouldn't know the difference.

Now, granted, Dragonlance was very much a product of the time. No argument from me here. And hopefully a lot of that will be addressed in the reworked setting. But, yeah, for me, the entire reason for existing of Ansalon is solely and only the War of the Lance.

If you look at the setting like that - a bespoke setting for a single campaign, it does start to make a lot more sense. Most of the design decisions, steel for money, that sort of thing - make sense. Thinking about it, I wonder if that's why I see settings as disposable. I've never used a single setting for all my campaigns. Every campaign I run is generally run in a new setting. Which means that that mountain of lore that accrues for these big settings like Forgotten Realms is largely pointless.

I'd personally love it if we got bespoke settings for every campaign set. I think campaigns like War of the Burning Sky, as an excellent example, are far preferable to trying to shoehorn campaign after campaign into this single setting like we see in 5e where we have these huge events, one after another - Hoard of the Dragon Queen followed by Princes followed by Out of the Abyss followed by Storm King's Thunder - all occurring within spitting distance of each other but never having a single impact on the setting.
 

Larnievc

Hero
This is a + thread. If you don't like Dragonlance, I'm sure there are plenty of people you can tell, but in this thread we're talking about the things we like most about Dragonlance!
Minotaurs. Reading the Legend of Huma and reading about Kaz was amazing to my teen self who used to have a childhood fear of the Minotaur of Crete. Kaz being a fellow of wit and discretion was simply wonderful.
 

Richards

Legend
I never got into Dragonlance - never read the main novels, just a few outliers here and there (I remember a short story collection that involved Tasselhoff, a ring, and Demogorgon; and another novel about a draconian army engineering team), so to me the best part of Dragonlance were the monsters. I was an avid collector of the old 2E "Monstrous Compendium" appendices, and the Dragonlance appendix added cool creatures like the various draconians, thanoi, wyndlass, knight haunt, hatori, and some interesting takes on "common" D&D creatures like minotaurs, centaurs, and ogres.

Johnathan
 

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