D&D 5E What happened to the punk aesthetic in D&D?

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
4. Emotional support. I enjoyed X from the past; since WoTC is not "officially" supporting X, they are not supporting something I liked, and therefore, they do not like me. WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ME?
(This is not personally directed at anybody)
Actually there is a high strong emotional component. But this is not because I need the big corporation to hug me; I have no problem with WotC. The problem is with the community at large. There is a strong judgemental current in mainstream D&D right now. Why not kitbash and homebrew? I don't know maybe because I don't want to be labeled a munchkin? I don't want to be judged? I don't want to feel like what I want is wrong?

I find this attitude is everywhere. Any deviation from dogma is quickly splashed and punished. There is too much fear of doing things wrong and of wanting the wrong things. There is also too much pressure to blindly accept all of the trappings of the edition, yet "do D&D your own way". (In other words if you are not owning D&D, you are doing it wrong, but at the same time if your way is not my way, something is wrong with you)

Stop munchkin shaming and labeling as entitled brats any and all dissent, and you will find people will be more open to do their own stuff -just remember it will be their own stuff-. On the other hand keep up with the munchkin stigma and more and more DMs an players will cling into the orthodoxy of official.

For this, I can only consider that, for at least some (probably small) sector of the D&D community, asking (demanding) for official content of the "right" kind seems to be a particularly quirky version of Fannish Entitlement: "I want those so-and-sos at Wotsy to admit they were WRONG WRONG WRONGITY WRONG and fix it by doing X." Which, jeeze, whatever gets you up in the morning, I guess, but really, now.

I'm guilty of having this feeling. It isn't I want a personal apology or anything, but feeling acknowledged and included would be nice given that so far all of my preferences are fringe at best. Official stuff and designer input has an effect on what the players at large see as bad and wrong. Being normalized in an environment where munchkin shaming is rampant would be so so nice.

Careful, some folks get really upset when you point out how unlikely it is that the people that wrote what they don't like would end up writing something they do like if they just took a second crack at it.

I think I could get something perfectly good for what I want and need given enough time. But it wouldn't do me any good. You see whatever I homebrew becomes a nice thing in my DM toolbox, a new option that can help my players express the characters they want to express. Yet, I cannot get any DM to even consider allowing my homebrew into their games (just how do you do that? I don't even know how would I start that conversation on a way that didn't sound as if I'm looking for an unfair advantage)
 

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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Yet, I cannot get any DM to even consider allowing my homebrew into their games (just how do you do that? I don't even know how would I start that conversation on a way that didn't sound as if I'm looking for an unfair advantage)
How does one get their DM to consider allowing their homebrew into their games?

I've used this 2-step process that seems to work:
1) Have, or be, a reasonable DM.
2) Work together toward the shared goal of everyone having a good time - not against each other, even if it seems like maybe the home-brewing player might just be trying to get an unfair advantage, or the DM might just be trying to discourage home-brew by making it unfairly disadvantaged.

As for starting a conversation about including some home-brew in a way that doesn't sound as if you're looking for an unfair advantage, that's as easy as phrasing your question as inviting compromise, rather than a specific (seemingly) already-defined request (i.e. the difference between "Is there some way I can add some draconic elements to my character?" and "Can I play a half-dragon?")
 

Lehrbuch

First Post
What do you think?

I think that in the past, with my playgroups, we had delusions that we could write better rules, and also an idea that playing by the rules was not creative.

Today, we seem to more inclined to accept that the official rules are good enough (perhaps, because the official rules are better?). Also, we seem to now have the idea that figuring out how to do what you want *within* the rules is at least as creative as simply making a rule to do what you want (which is different to rules-lawyering; as you are trying to obey the letter *and* spirit of the rules).

Having said that we are still open to homebrew around the periphery of the rules-set. So, homebrew backgrounds, races, spells, weapons, feats, all get introduced from time-to-time. And probably in that order of popularity. When I am DM I try to be pretty permissive of players bringing material like that to the table.
 

mflayermonk

First Post
I think that in the past, with my playgroups, we had delusions that we could write better rules, and also an idea that playing by the rules was not creative.

Today, we seem to more inclined to accept that the official rules are good enough (perhaps, because the official rules are better?). Also, we seem to now have the idea that figuring out how to do what you want *within* the rules is at least as creative as simply making a rule to do what you want (which is different to rules-lawyering; as you are trying to obey the letter *and* spirit of the rules).

Having said that we are still open to homebrew around the periphery of the rules-set. So, homebrew backgrounds, races, spells, weapons, feats, all get introduced from time-to-time. And probably in that order of popularity. When I am DM I try to be pretty permissive of players bringing material like that to the table.

So your saying you cut your hair? :)
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
I think I could get something perfectly good for what I want and need given enough time. You see whatever I homebrew becomes a nice thing in my DM toolbox, a new option that can help my players express the characters they want to express.
Yep. The 'make the game your own' thing is all on the DM's side of the screen, and it's the players who avail themselves of PC options the DM creates.

When the DM becomes a player, she gives that up, by definition.

But it wouldn't do me any good. I cannot get any DM to even consider allowing my homebrew into their games
IIRC, the DMs in your area won't consider much of anything?

(just how do you do that? I don't even know how would I start that conversation on a way that didn't sound as if I'm looking for an unfair advantage)
Depends on your relationship with the DM in question - and the degree to which you're willing to trade on that relationship. You're into 'gaming the DM' territory, there, and might come up empty, get booted from a group - or get away with murder.
 

I mean, there are probably some folks out there who are basic-rules purists, just as there are a bunch of splatbook enthusiasts who cackle with glee whenever they think they've found an overpowered combo of features. My guess is that more people - a LOT more - still play the game with their own additions and modifications to suit the play-style of the group they play with.

I think most people who have played for more than a week (okay, maybe a bit longer) use some form of house rules. Some of those are just based on not understanding the rules, or how they interpret vague rules. Others might be one or two minor tweaks.

However... there is a big difference to me between that and a heavily house-ruled game, or a game that makes use of a lot of third-party content.

I don't think making your own adventures even counts as homebrewing materials. That's assumed practice. Playing only published adventures is kind of a "variant option" in and of itself.

Playing with your own world vs a published world is about a 50/50. I'd say both are equally standard official options.

Then you have creating your own monsters, magic items, and spells. That's moving just a bit into true home-brewing mode.

Casual house rules, that seek to "fix" bits of the game you'd like different are in the same category.

Beyond that you get to full on home-brewing, where you are making up classes, feats, and extensive rules-rewrites, or using those made by others. At that point I think, "Why play D&D?"

I just think it is useful to see where one falls on that spectrum, and perhaps identify it in discussions, because we can be talking about vastly different things when one person is thinking, "using group initiative and I writing their own adventures," and another person is thinking, "changed all the classes and uses most of the material on DM's Guild."
 

ProgBard

First Post
(This is not personally directed at anybody)
Actually there is a high strong emotional component. But this is not because I need the big corporation to hug me; I have no problem with WotC. The problem is with the community at large. There is a strong judgemental current in mainstream D&D right now. Why not kitbash and homebrew? I don't know maybe because I don't want to be labeled a munchkin? I don't want to be judged? I don't want to feel like what I want is wrong?

I find this attitude is everywhere. Any deviation from dogma is quickly splashed and punished. There is too much fear of doing things wrong and of wanting the wrong things. There is also too much pressure to blindly accept all of the trappings of the edition, yet "do D&D your own way". (In other words if you are not owning D&D, you are doing it wrong, but at the same time if your way is not my way, something is wrong with you)

Stop munchkin shaming and labeling as entitled brats any and all dissent, and you will find people will be more open to do their own stuff -just remember it will be their own stuff-. On the other hand keep up with the munchkin stigma and more and more DMs an players will cling into the orthodoxy of official.

I'm not seeing the same attitude you are - which is not, I hasten to add, an assertion that it doesn't exist. It sucks that it's been making your experiences less fun.

It's kind of a tricky needle to thread, I'm sure, because actual bonafide munchkinism is a legitimate problem, and one of the unfortunate legacies of 3e is that there's a small subset of players who found it gave them exactly the tools they needed for powergaming in a kind of toxic way. It's made some folks gunshy, especially when they're seeing bunch of folks from 3e who were lost to the subsequent edition coming back now, and it's not always obvious, when folks start asking for more options, which ones are doing so in order to be wangrods. And it's a shame when players who just want something cool that the main-sequence rules don't model get caught in the same net.

I'm guilty of having this feeling. It isn't I want a personal apology or anything, but feeling acknowledged and included would be nice given that so far all of my preferences are fringe at best. Official stuff and designer input has an effect on what the players at large see as bad and wrong. Being normalized in an environment where munchkin shaming is rampant would be so so nice.

I dunno if this helps, but sometimes just owning that what you dig is kinda fringe-y is liberating all by itself. I mean, it won't get you what you want any faster, but it might help temper your expectations when it comes to how you relate to the corporate tastemaker. A whole bunch of my musical interests are well outside the mainstream and are never going to be validated by the local Top 40 station; so I have to shrug and say, "Well, I guess my tastes are weird and unfashionable," and listen to my own albums instead. Yes, it means I have to be that much more confident that what I like is okay, so I don't need the validation from elsewhere; but it also keeps me from getting annoyed that the pop radio outlet never plays any Current 93.

Of course, here's where the parallel breaks down, because games are social and if you want to be able to actually play what you like, you need buy-in at the table. So ....

I think I could get something perfectly good for what I want and need given enough time. But it wouldn't do me any good. You see whatever I homebrew becomes a nice thing in my DM toolbox, a new option that can help my players express the characters they want to express. Yet, I cannot get any DM to even consider allowing my homebrew into their games (just how do you do that? I don't even know how would I start that conversation on a way that didn't sound as if I'm looking for an unfair advantage)

... So there's nothing wrong with just using your words and saying, "Hey, DM, none of the PHB options are quite modeling what I really want to play. Would you be willing to work with me to come up with a new class or variant that fits what I'm looking for?"

It goes without saying that there's no script for this that guarantees you'll get a Yes. But there's nothing about that approach that says "I Am A Munchkin And I Wish To Break Your Game." It's a perfectly reasonable request and there's no good cause to dismiss it out of hand if your relationship with your DM is built on mutual trust and respect.

Which means the bad news is that if what you're getting is outright rejection, something is wrong. Maybe the DM doesn't know you well enough and would like you to play something more by-the-book to get a sense of how you play before they're willing to let you get under the hood. Maybe they've been burned recently by one or more special-snowflake powergamers whose custom stuff was broken or disruptive, or maybe there's a known munchkin at the table who's going to throw a fit if you get to tinker and he doesn't, so the DM just can't make any exceptions - and that's not your fault, or fair to you, but those are real things that are cause for concern from the DM's side of the screen. Maybe the DM's not confident in their own system-hacking skills, and so knows they'll have a hard time telling if your homebrew is broken in a non-obvious way. Or, yanno, maybe your DM's just a wangrod. It happens. And if you suspect this last is the case, that's the cue to hie thee hence, because life is too short to game with wangrods.

BUT, if you can establish that relationship of mutual trust and respect, you should at least be able to get an audience for your request. You may have to negotiate a little; you may have to make a few compromises. But it really can be a conversation and not just begging for scraps. And if you're unsure of yourself in a negotiation of this kind and want some additional beneficial guidance, may I recommend the book Getting to Yes as an excellent starting point for adding these tools to your social toolkit?
 

epithet

Explorer
...
Why not kitbash and homebrew? I don't know maybe because I don't want to be labeled a munchkin? I don't want to be judged? I don't want to feel like what I want is wrong?
...
Stop munchkin shaming and labeling as entitled brats any and all dissent, and you will find people will be more open to do their own stuff -just remember it will be their own stuff-. On the other hand keep up with the munchkin stigma and more and more DMs an players will cling into the orthodoxy of official.
...
I think I could get something perfectly good for what I want and need given enough time. But it wouldn't do me any good. You see whatever I homebrew becomes a nice thing in my DM toolbox, a new option that can help my players express the characters they want to express. Yet, I cannot get any DM to even consider allowing my homebrew into their games (just how do you do that? I don't even know how would I start that conversation on a way that didn't sound as if I'm looking for an unfair advantage)

I feel slightly disoriented and altogether old. Could someone please give me a definition of "munchkin" in this context?

Anyway, all I can do is shake my head at your situation. At the risk of having liver spots burst out on my wrinkled hide, I'll tell you - back in my day, the shame would have fallen on the DM who was afraid to tweak the game and make a few new rules to tailor the system to the group he was playing with and the game they wanted to play. Just the idea of feeling like you're bound to the "official" rules is strange to me. I can't help but feel as though a DM who lacks the imagination to even incorporate professional 3rd party content (for example, classes published here through En5ider) is unlikely to be running an engaging or entertaining campaign, because whatever he's doing is just paint-by-numbers unless he's willing to take ownership and control of the game.

My own bias aside, though, I think the way to start that conversation is to describe your character concept, focussing on the key elements that make it unique. Then, offer examples of independently published material that could realize that concept, including when possible the pedigree of the developer of that material. For example, if you wanted to use Matt Mercer's witch hunter class, you might remind your DM that Mercer has worked with WotC, that Chris Perkins of WotC has upon occasion joined his game as a player, and that the class was published, reviewed and tested by players, then revised and improved based on that feedback.

If the class you're wanting to play is your own creation, after you have described the concept on which it is based you should show the DM your new class bit-by-bit, tracking the guidelines for class creation in the DMG. Describe the factors that went into each of your design decisions. When you are done, don't ask for the class to be allowed in the game, instead ask the DM to help you refine and polish the class into something useable. That way, he will have a chance to play around with it and understand it before agreeing to it, and will feel a sense of shared ownership in the finished product.

Finally, if your DM refuses to even consider anything beyond "official" content, you need to start thinking of the group and not the game. Pick another member of the gaming group and ask him or her for help developing and perfecting the homebrewed class. Then, look for an opportunity for one of you to run a one-shot adventure, where the other one actually plays that class in the game. Ask the other players what they thought of the character class in action, listen to their feedback, and find something they suggested to incorporate into the class. Do it again with another one-shot. Now, you have a class that your table group has helped develop. Then it's time to start asking other members of the group what they might want to do for the group's next ongoing campaign, and hopefully you'll find one of them who is interested in DMing (maybe after having run one of the one-shot games where you tested the class out.)

I think an important thing to keep in mind is that the campaign belongs to the DM, but the game belongs to the group. It seems like some of the DMs out there have developed god complexes, and get a little power rush whenever they refuse to allow something in the game. It's like a tank in an MMORPG telling the raid group what to do - everyone wants to play and therefore needs a DM, so they tend to tolerate a lot of primadona crap from whoever is willing to sit behind the DM screen. That doesn't make it any less stinky, though - crap is crap.

If you focus your effort on the group and not the game, you might not be able to play exactly the character you want to in the campaign you're starting right now, but you could be investing in a group that will have fun campaigns for years or decades to come, and one day you'll be an old grognard talking about how the game was played back in your day, and wondering what the hell these kids mean when they call someone a "munchkin."
 

discosoc

First Post
I think we should keep in mind that consumption of the game has changed compared to the 80s and 90s. Back when i was playing 2e, game night was a big deal because not only did we play, but it was also a chance to talk about the genre as a group. Sure, we'd have conversations between classes or something, but I was nothing close to the immediate gratification of getting feedback on an idea by posting on a forum or reddit.

Basically, players just dont have the attention spans for it anymore.
 

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