D&D 5E What happened to the punk aesthetic in D&D?

[Olive]

Just because you've heard both things being said, doesn't mean that - with some notable individual exceptions - it's all the same people saying them. The two contradictory statements can therefore exist. And there's no way anybody has checked in significant numbers to see if the two groups of people are, in fact, one and the same.

For example I generally like the official stuff and use it as a measure of quality.


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[Morrus]

Sure but the answer to what happened to the punk ethos in 5e is that it exists in the OSR.

The punk ethos most certainly exists at the game tables of many 5E players. It does at mine, for sure.

 

[mflayermonk]

A few years ago I was reading books on the history of punk and put some thought along these same lines. I might try and stick some quotes in here, but the three books I found the most relevant to D&D were Fu*** Up + Photocopied: instant art of the punk rock movement by Bryan Turcotte, Retromania by Simon Reynolds and Please Kill Me by Legs McNeill.
The general idea was that music had become this large and complex orchestrated event with bands like Led Zeppelin, Bowie and Yes. But boil it down (or distill) to its core and what you really want is young people, noise, and energy. The window dressing, fireworks, and seats aren't necessary, just mainline me the emotion, straight into my gut, you can punch it into me, but don't sugarcoat it into me with fake Disney happiness. A punch is f**ing real.
Another thing is available technology-for example punk music was killed by the drum machine, because the drum machine allowed people to capture noise and energy with even less effort than a 3-piece punk band's guitar and drum set.

This isn't a well organized set of thoughts, I might try and get back with more later if time allows.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...punk music was killed by the drum machine...

That's a thing I definitely haven't heard before.

 

[mflayermonk]

That's a thing I definitely haven't heard before.

It was...Suicide.

 

[Krachek]

DnD has grown up.
Father ask advice to DM game for their kids!
DnD is no more a hidden, esoteric game.

 

[epithet]

The two DMs that would qualify as WotC "brand ambassadors" for D&D are Chris Perkins and Matt Mercer, both of whom homebrew content and make up rules when they feel like it. While there are certainly some folks on the 5e forum who get their knickers in a twist over silly "rules as written" arguments and who dismiss any product without the WotC logo (even if written and published by the same folks who created "official" content for 5e,) there are just as many who come to ENWorld for feedback to polish their homebrew classes, archetypes, monsters and NPCs, traps, etc.

I mean, there are probably some folks out there who are basic-rules purists, just as there are a bunch of splatbook enthusiasts who cackle with glee whenever they think they've found an overpowered combo of features. My guess is that more people - a LOT more - still play the game with their own additions and modifications to suit the play-style of the group they play with. It's just the nature of the beast that the ones who play the stripped down Adventurer's League version of the game are more public about it. I suppose the awareness of what they give up in the interests of a standardized, interchangeable game also leads some folks to get a little sensitive about it, and to defend their restricted playstyle.

 

[Ancalagon]

Dude. You have to go for 100,000.

So close, and yet you can't say, "I have written six figures worth of words. SIX FIGURES!!!!!"

Then you just kind of stare for a long time, like an H. P. Lovecraft protagonist that finally realized, "Hey, this can't be explained by science."

LOL

I'm not sure the exact count. I measured near the end and I was at 84 000. Maybe if I add the stuff at the end (that was quite busy) it would add to 100 000?

As far as "not explained by science"...

I consulted reports of the Royal Geographic Society written by explorers in the 1870s on how to cross the Himalayas, so it could be more authentic. (if I'm not mistaken, Hayward's "Journey from Leh to Yarkand and Kashgar" Volume 40, 1870, was particularly relevant)

Then the PCs decided not to go that way.

 

[MonkeyWrench]

How can this thread go this long without mentioning the OSR - which is largely about toolkit, self-published games?


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I did; on the second page.

 

[ProgBard]

A few years ago I was reading books on the history of punk and put some thought along these same lines. I might try and stick some quotes in here, but the three books I found the most relevant to D&D were Fu*** Up + Photocopied: instant art of the punk rock movement by Bryan Turcotte, Retromania by Simon Reynolds and Please Kill Me by Legs McNeill.
The general idea was that music had become this large and complex orchestrated event with bands like Led Zeppelin, Bowie and Yes. But boil it down (or distill) to its core and what you really want is young people, noise, and energy. The window dressing, fireworks, and seats aren't necessary, just mainline me the emotion, straight into my gut, you can punch it into me, but don't sugarcoat it into me with fake Disney happiness. A punch is f**ing real.
Another thing is available technology-for example punk music was killed by the drum machine, because the drum machine allowed people to capture noise and energy with even less effort than a 3-piece punk band's guitar and drum set.

All this is pretty much why I give the side-eye to punk's fetishization of "authenticity" (and not just, as one might rightly infer from my handle, because I'm rather inclined to be aesthetically on the side of Bowie and Yes).

There's the assumption that to be truly of value, a thing ought to be distilled to its core and stripped of "window dressing." That aggression and energy are more real and valuable than happiness (which is just "sugar-coating"). And there's the distrust of innovation and technology - even when those things actually provide more access and opportunity for people to create and produce DIY art.

(To be clear: I'm not accusing you, [MENTION=54007]mflayermonk[/MENTION], of these points of view, or assuming you're doing anything more than describing them; they read to me as accurate attitudes of many self-identified followers of punk, and sum up neatly why my relationship with that movement is, uh, complicated.)

I think punk and OSR would both do well to be wary of the ways in which they're reactionary, and in some ways essentially conservative, subcultures (or sub-subcultures). They've both provided some much-needed new energy and direction in the art forms they serve, and useful new sets of tools for addressing various issues; and in both cases, one of the best things they do is encourage DIY approaches that don't need the approval of gatekeepers. I love how punk and OSR both say, "You can do this too! You don't have to be an expert to contribute! I just learned this myself yesterday!" That's awesome. But they're both also unsettlingly good at enforcing their tribal boundaries, and that's not so awesome. So while I applaud (and participate in; my homemade terrain and game aids, let me show you them) what punk brings to D&D, I find myself at pains to suggest we should see it as something that expands the palette instead of limiting it.