OSR What Has Caused the OSR Revival?

[Meatboy]

Let's say you have Thac0 13 and you roll a 5, then you hit AC 13-5 = 8.
Let's say you have +7 to hit and you roll a 5, then you hit AC 7+5 = 12 (the equivalent of AC 8 with Thac0).

In other words, the difference between Thac0 and to-hit is just that you do a subtraction in one system, and addition in the other. When they changed from Thac0 to to-hit, I really didn't really get the benefit, as I know both subtraction and addition.

Thanks for the implication contrary to the evidence I am capable of simple math but the target 20 method just clicked for me in a way that thaco never did. I can do thaco but I need to think about, with target 20 it just happens.

 

[delericho]

... and in 3e you often had 6-7 extra modifiers (medium to long buff spells). Especially on my high level cleric. Rightous Might, Divine Power, Divine Power, Bless, Haste, Prayer, Greater Magic weapon and a few others...

Indeed. That's a slightly different issue, but it's certainly an issue with 3e.

Sometimes, that edition (and, indeed 4e) feels like the designers found some new way to simplify and speed up the game... and immediately celebrated by adding a hundred and one ways to make it more complex again.

The formalisation of Swift and Immediate actions in the Expanded Psionics Handbook being another good example - when they were extremely rare in the game, adding the formalisation actually made things just that bit neater, but then 4e insisted on giving everyone a bunch of Minor-action powers leading to lots of lost time when people scanned around for a use of this action, so they didn't feel like they'd "wasted" it.

(And don't get me started on 3e' stacking rules, and the absurd proliferation of bonus types...)

 

[Blackbrrd]

Indeed. That's a slightly different issue, but it's certainly an issue with 3e.

Sometimes, that edition (and, indeed 4e) feels like the designers found some new way to simplify and speed up the game... and immediately celebrated by adding a hundred and one ways to make it more complex again.

The formalisation of Swift and Immediate actions in the Expanded Psionics Handbook being another good example - when they were extremely rare in the game, adding the formalisation actually made things just that bit neater, but then 4e insisted on giving everyone a bunch of Minor-action powers leading to lots of lost time when people scanned around for a use of this action, so they didn't feel like they'd "wasted" it.

(And don't get me started on 3e' stacking rules, and the absurd proliferation of bonus types...)

You mean the: size, enhancement, luck, moreal, haste and insight bonus of the above mentioned spells?

The minor actions in 4e really does slow down the game, marks, curses and healing as minor actions are just annoying. A better solution is the essential's defender "aura" mechanics (which should be always on except if they choose not to).

 

[Blackbrrd]

Thanks for the implication contrary to the evidence I am capable of simple math but the target 20 method just clicked for me in a way that thaco never did. I can do thaco but I need to think about, with target 20 it just happens.

You are welcome to my unintended snarkyness!

 

[Kinak]

While even Gary said he "goofed" with AC's into negative numbers, nobody found it, or THAC0, confusing until 3E said it was : )

Hi, I'm nobody!

It certainly wasn't unusable, but my group was making fun of THAC0 back when they were still rolling out new 2nd Edition products.

But we were also talking seriously about things like the lack of a unified mechanic (half roll-over, some roll-under, and a smattering of random specialized systems?) and eventually working on developing our own system, so we were a pretty strange group.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Bedrockgames]

Thanks for the implication contrary to the evidence I am capable of simple math but the target 20 method just clicked for me in a way that thaco never did. I can do thaco but I need to think about, with target 20 it just happens.

One of the things many OSR games eliminate is THAC0 and attack matrices. Ascending AC and d20 against a TN is pretty common. That said, how i liked to do thac0 to make it easier for players is use the thac0 tracker in the ravenloft character sheet. This basically allows you to plot your thac0 against various ACs each time you level. It takes a few moments to write down, but once if you do it, if you find the doing the subtraction creates a momentary glitch for you (and i think it is fair to say many people have this experience with it), it pretty much removes the problem. What i liked about the AD&D method, was the numbers tended to be a lot more contained than in d20. But that isnt really a function of thaC0 and can be done using d20 plus a number against a TN.

 

[delericho]

You mean the: size, enhancement, luck, moreal, haste and insight bonus of the above mentioned spells?

Well, yes, but...

Actually, I don't find the list of types in the DMG too bad (though even it's a bit long). However, it really started to go wrong when the supplements seemed to feel the need to introduce a whole raft of new bonus types, mostly so they could introduce a bunch of new spells/powers/items that use the new bonus type.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Well, yes, but...

Actually, I don't find the list of types in the DMG too bad (though even it's a bit long). However, it really started to go wrong when the supplements seemed to feel the need to introduce a whole raft of new bonus types, mostly so they could introduce a bunch of new spells/powers/items that use the new bonus type.

Are you sure it's not too bad?

I didn't have too much problems running that level 18 cleric myself, but it was awkward. I had precalculated an excel sheet for Divine Power to-hit/dmg and then did the rest of it by hand on a separate piece of paper. I typically had Divine Power, Divine Favour, Haste, Insight of Yarus (or whatever it was called, it's from Dragonlance) and bless running at the same time. This gave me +2str+4bab+3luck+1haste+2insight+1morale = +13 extra to hit and +2*1.5str+3luck= +6 to damage.

4e does a much better job in the bonus department, and I don't want to go back to the 3e way...

 

[MJS]

Hi, I'm nobody!

It certainly wasn't unusable, but my group was making fun of THAC0 back when they were still rolling out new 2nd Edition products.

But we were also talking seriously about things like the lack of a unified mechanic (half roll-over, some roll-under, and a smattering of random specialized systems?) and eventually working on developing our own system, so we were a pretty strange group.

Cheers!
Kinak

Not at all, working out one's own system is what "everybody" did. And it never ends....
as for AC, I'll have to come clean here. I can do basic arithmetic. I worked as a cashier with no calculator or register to count for me. Indeed by far the easiest method, almost automatic, is to add back to whatever the customer gave you.
But running games, I use the attack matrices on my DM screen. I guess it's just an artifact of times gone by.
We are all a "pretty strange group".

Cheers to you as well ~

 

[fjw70]

I think one of the big things that has stimulated the OSR movement is that 3e and 4e both lack a true basic version of the game, an oversight that DDN seems to be correcting.