D&D 5E What is the Deal with the Twilight Cleric?

[Horwath]

Everybody's a munchkin!!

twilight cleric is a reason why playtest should be run exclusively by muchkins/power players.
Game must be broken 1st, then can it only be fixed.

 

[James Gasik]

twilight cleric is a reason why playtest should be run exclusively by muchkins/power players.
Game must be broken 1st, then can it only be fixed.

Stress-testing is a good thing! But I think it's less "the game allows for this" that bothers people, and more "I wish people wouldn't think about such things".

I have friends who are always trying to create complex house rules and sub-systems for games, and they get really mad at me when I try to point out something they didn't think of.

Then, when it comes up in game (as it inevitably will, even if avoid doing it personally), they get all bent out of shape about it. Proud nails beg for hammers, edge cases will come up. I feel it's better to be prepared for such inevitabilities. Other people feel that scrutinizing the game in that way misses the point.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

twilight cleric is a reason why playtest should be run exclusively by muchkins/power players.
Game must be broken 1st, then can it only be fixed.

The person who I had playing this subclass was as far from a power gamer as you can imagine. They chose it entirely for theme (as a cleric of Eilistraee) and then where embarrassed about dominating the game without actually doing very much.

There is a difference between having to work hard to create a broken character, and a character who is broken straight out of the box with factory specs.

 

[James Gasik]

The problem with builds like this is that how they warp the game around them might not be particularly noticeable to other players. I had a DMM Persist Cleric in a 3.5 game (if you know, you know) who solely cast buff spells on the party with absurdly long durations. I was up front with my plans, and the DM started off on board, but slowly began to go mad as the party's boosted numbers let them coast through level-appropriate challenges (and even some that were far from level-appropriate). Meanwhile, the other players rarely saw me do more than use a wand or a Reserve Feat, and I remember a time when another player actually complained that I should be doing more to "pull my own weight".

Then I had to miss a session and they all died.

5e, in particular, seems designed to only occasionally challenge it's players. If they're not taking much real damage and don't spend a lot of time bleeding out on the ground, I doubt they're going to find any problem with it. They might not even see the Twilight Cleric as particularly stronger than any other Cleric (heck, they might be like, "why can't you be a Life Cleric for bigger heals?" lol).

This isn't broken on the level of "I did 55% of the damage to the boss, keep up, scrubs". It's a force multiplier, letting everyone else stronger/more resilient. It's not even the most egregious thing a Cleric can do (Spirit Guardians, oh my Gygax!).

But it is the kind of thing that requires more specialized tactics to defeat. A lot of DM's will be annoyed by this, as they can't rightly make every encounter an AoE fest. However, to a point, I think they can. After all, just imagine that Twilight Clerics become popular in your campaign world. People will sit up and take notice. Other types of Clerics may crusade against the upstarts! Tactics will evolve. Casters with AoE spells, fire arrows, poison, and other things that will chew through those temps or simply not care about them (like evil necromancers deciding to start raising armies of Shadows instead of Zombies) are a natural consequence.

I know, it'd be easier if there wasn't a proud nail, but players finding ways to warp the game around them is nothing new and should be expected. If it isn't this, it'll be something else. Banning and house ruling away every such problem will get tedious in the long run. Not to belittle anyone's frustration- it's obnoxious when something that seems too good comes along.

But put into perspective, it might not be as big a problem as it seems. A big creature can just squash the Cleric flat, temps or no temps. A Dragon can spread hefty damage around just as well. There's lots of ways to nickel and dime these temps away, and you can't take an hour nap between every fight.

YMMV, but I think a Peace Cleric is more obnoxious, as it becomes very difficult to pile damage onto one character with them around.

 

[Zardnaar]

The problem with builds like this is that how they warp the game around them might not be particularly noticeable to other players. I had a DMM Persist Cleric in a 3.5 game (if you know, you know) who solely cast buff spells on the party with absurdly long durations. I was up front with my plans, and the DM started off on board, but slowly began to go mad as the party's boosted numbers let them coast through level-appropriate challenges (and even some that were far from level-appropriate). Meanwhile, the other players rarely saw me do more than use a wand or a Reserve Feat, and I remember a time when another player actually complained that I should be doing more to "pull my own weight".

Then I had to miss a session and they all died.

5e, in particular, seems designed to only occasionally challenge it's players. If they're not taking much real damage and don't spend a lot of time bleeding out on the ground, I doubt they're going to find any problem with it. They might not even see the Twilight Cleric as particularly stronger than any other Cleric (heck, they might be like, "why can't you be a Life Cleric for bigger heals?" lol).

This isn't broken on the level of "I did 55% of the damage to the boss, keep up, scrubs". It's a force multiplier, letting everyone else stronger/more resilient. It's not even the most egregious thing a Cleric can do (Spirit Guardians, oh my Gygax!).

But it is the kind of thing that requires more specialized tactics to defeat. A lot of DM's will be annoyed by this, as they can't rightly make every encounter an AoE fest. However, to a point, I think they can. After all, just imagine that Twilight Clerics become popular in your campaign world. People will sit up and take notice. Other types of Clerics may crusade against the upstarts! Tactics will evolve. Casters with AoE spells, fire arrows, poison, and other things that will chew through those temps or simply not care about them (like evil necromancers deciding to start raising armies of Shadows instead of Zombies) are a natural consequence.

I know, it'd be easier if there wasn't a proud nail, but players finding ways to warp the game around them is nothing new and should be expected. If it isn't this, it'll be something else. Banning and house ruling away every such problem will get tedious in the long run. Not to belittle anyone's frustration- it's obnoxious when something that seems too good comes along.

But put into perspective, it might not be as big a problem as it seems. A big creature can just squash the Cleric flat, temps or no temps. A Dragon can spread hefty damage around just as well. There's lots of ways to nickel and dime these temps away, and you can't take an hour nap between every fight.

YMMV, but I think a Peace Cleric is more obnoxious, as it becomes very difficult to pile damage onto one character with them around.

We had a 3.5 bard doing similar things. +8 to hit and damage level 8 iirc.

Buffs are subtle. Keep track of damage a simple bless spells dud. It outdamaged every other level 1 spell with possible exceptions of critical hit chromatic orc or guiding bolt.

I have seen a critical hut guiding bolt on vulnerability to radiant though.

 

[James Gasik]

We had a 3.5 bard doing similar things. +8 to hit and damage level 8 iirc.

Buffs are subtle. Keep track of damage a simple bless spells dud. It outdamaged every other level 1 spell with possible exceptions of critical hit chromatic orc or guiding bolt.

I have seen a critical hut guiding bolt on vulnerability to radiant though.

Does your Bard also convert raw numbers into bonus elemental damage? I've seen that trick done too. Honestly, I miss the days when I could cast good buffs on players. Now almost everything is locked behind concentration and a lot of what you can cast is terrible (looking at you, Enlarge).

I miss being able to cast Fell the Greatest Foe on my party's melee specialist and watch them go to town- nobody talks about martial/caster nonsense when you can buff like that!

But all the silly self-buffers ruined it for everyone, I know. Now I can't even hand out Fly or Haste because I'm too busy concentrating on battlefield control spells...