D&D 5E What is the "Simple" Full Casting Class?

[Zardnaar]

Clerics. There is almost no danger of permanently ruining it for a noob player because you can change spells every long rest and there is not the feature flood of warlock. Clerics also having better hit dice and proficiencies make them a bit more survivable than wizards.

I never understood why so many answer warlock to this question. I had 2 noobs at my games play Warlock and they had a horrible time. You need to really understand the system to play a warlock efficiently and its quiet easy to ruin your build by choosing wrong class feats. Also the limited spell splots are frustrating to new players who wanted to play a spellcaster to go buckwild with their spells and not to cast "Eldritch Blast" 95% of the time. Warlock also have more "difficult" demands to roleplaying due to the whole patron pact stuff, but my players liked this part of the class. Nowadays I always treat Warlock as an advanced spell caster class and advice newbies to take cleric or wizard.

At least your newbies picked Eldritch Blast.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Clerics. There is almost no danger of permanently ruining it for a noob player because you can change spells every long rest and there is not the feature flood of warlock. Clerics also having better hit dice and proficiencies make them a bit more survivable than wizards.

I never understood why so many answer warlock to this question. I had 2 noobs at my games play Warlock and they had a horrible time. You need to really understand the system to play a warlock efficiently and its quiet easy to ruin your build by choosing wrong class feats. Also the limited spell splots are frustrating to new players who wanted to play a spellcaster to go buckwild with their spells and not to cast "Eldritch Blast" 95% of the time. Warlock also have more "difficult" demands to roleplaying due to the whole patron pact stuff, but my players liked this part of the class. Nowadays I always treat Warlock as an advanced spell caster class and advice newbies to take cleric or wizard.

I disagree, but I see your point too.

Locked-in complexity: Difficulty can be how easy/hard it is to fix a bad build. Wizard and cleric here are unbeatable. They rely so much on spells and the spells can be changed out easily. Martials are really bad here since pretty much everything they have is fixed so they are very difficult/impossible to fix.

Baseline complexity: Difficulty can be how easy/hard it is to reach some kind of baseline of competence. I think good martials like fighters are an example of being good here. It is possible to fumble the build, but it's harder when there are fewer options. I think casters are OK here, especially with help from the GM.

Mechanical complexity: How difficult is it to get a good grasp of the class and how much do you need reference other sections of the book. This is where all spell casters go. Lots of spells to look up. Some of this complexity can be avoided if the GM aids class construction.

I don't know what to call it, but I also think there should be some kind of type of difficulty to cover classes that are not obvious in what they are actually supposed to do. You can build a passable wizard in D&D by just focusing on blasting, but I think some spells are pitfalls and especially with some classes it might not be obvious what you are actually supposed to be actually doing doing. I think clerics might have issues here, though I admit I haven't played clerics in 5E, I remember them being really weird in 3.5 and PF1 and how you're supposed to play them wasn't obvious. They're casters but they are not blasters, and their power lies in more obscure spells. Everyone knows intuitively what Fireball is good for, but how powerful is Bless really?

At least your newbies picked Eldritch Blast.

EB should absolutely be a class feature rather than a spell. It would avoid all these issues.

 

[Zardnaar]

I disagree, but I see your point too.

Locked-in complexity: Difficulty can be how easy/hard it is to fix a bad build. Wizard and cleric here are unbeatable. They rely so much on spells and the spells can be changed out easily. Martials are really bad here since pretty much everything they have is fixed so they are very difficult/impossible to fix.

Baseline complexity: Difficulty can be how easy/hard it is to reach some kind of baseline of competence. I think good martials like fighters are an example of being good here. It is possible to fumble the build, but it's harder when there are fewer options. I think casters are OK here, especially with help from the GM.

Mechanical complexity: How difficult is it to get a good grasp of the class and how much do you need reference other sections of the book. This is where all spell casters go. Lots of spells to look up. Some of this complexity can be avoided if the GM aids class construction.

I don't know what to call it, but I also think there should be some kind of type of difficulty to cover classes that are not obvious in what they are actually supposed to do. You can build a passable wizard in D&D by just focusing on blasting, but I think some spells are pitfalls and especially with some classes it might not be obvious what you are actually supposed to be actually doing doing. I think clerics might have issues here, though I admit I haven't played clerics in 5E, I remember them being really weird in 3.5 and PF1 and how you're supposed to play them wasn't obvious. They're casters but they are not blasters, and their power lies in more obscure spells. Everyone knows intuitively what Fireball is good for, but how powerful is Bless really?


EB should absolutely be a class feature rather than a spell. It would avoid all these issues.

2015 or 16 I played a game where the Warlock didn't take EB.

 

[Retros_x]

I disagree, but I see your point too.

Locked-in complexity: Difficulty can be how easy/hard it is to fix a bad build. Wizard and cleric here are unbeatable. They rely so much on spells and the spells can be changed out easily. Martials are really bad here since pretty much everything they have is fixed so they are very difficult/impossible to fix.

Baseline complexity: Difficulty can be how easy/hard it is to reach some kind of baseline of competence. I think good martials like fighters are an example of being good here. It is possible to fumble the build, but it's harder when there are fewer options. I think casters are OK here, especially with help from the GM.

Mechanical complexity: How difficult is it to get a good grasp of the class and how much do you need reference other sections of the book. This is where all spell casters go. Lots of spells to look up. Some of this complexity can be avoided if the GM aids class construction.

I don't know what to call it, but I also think there should be some kind of type of difficulty to cover classes that are not obvious in what they are actually supposed to do. You can build a passable wizard in D&D by just focusing on blasting, but I think some spells are pitfalls and especially with some classes it might not be obvious what you are actually supposed to be actually doing doing. I think clerics might have issues here, though I admit I haven't played clerics in 5E, I remember them being really weird in 3.5 and PF1 and how you're supposed to play them wasn't obvious. They're casters but they are not blasters, and their power lies in more obscure spells. Everyone knows intuitively what Fireball is good for, but how powerful is Bless really?


EB should absolutely be a class feature rather than a spell. It would avoid all these issues.

I agree with these distinctions of complexity, but Warlock has not just the locked-in complexity. Even if Warlock could change their class feats on every long rest, they still have much more options they need to decide on than a cleric. Than the limited spell slots force the player to have a good understanding of the rules and combat to decide when its actually worth to spent one of these very scarce resources. The only reason warlock often is stated as "newbie friendly" is that they always cast on highest spell level, but the impact for new players is highly overrated IMO - on level 1 every caster has only one spell level anyway. Spell slots on higher level grow gradually and at the time players need to handle multiple different spell levels - they are not complete newbies anymore and hopefully can handle it a bit better.

At least your newbies picked Eldritch Blast.

Haha, only after me and the other more experienced players adviced them to do so. But they still were frustrated to blast all the time and of of them plainly refused to, because it was boring. Interestingly they preferred to shoot their crossbow and had no problem with the crossbow being a "boring default attack roll". Because crowsbow shooting matched their expectations "target enemy, hit for damage". Meanwhile Eldritch Blast did not meet their expectations of magic, which should be more fantastic than "target enemy, hit for damage". Honestly, I cant blame them for that.

 

[Seramus]

Spamming Eldritch Blast is just so weak though - does anyone actually do this in real life and not as a baseline DPS metric for youtube videos?

I don't think there's anything really wrong with it. You can contribute in combat with very little investment, and save most of your resources for other things.

I would love invocations for other cantrips, though!

 

[Neonchameleon]

I never understood why so many answer warlock to this question. I had 2 noobs at my games play Warlock and they had a horrible time. You need to really understand the system to play a warlock efficiently and its quiet easy to ruin your build by choosing wrong class feats.

Because most people who are saying warlocks are saying that they are hard at level up and easy in play ... assuming that the level up has been done decently. 2014 warlocks are buried in trap options, most but not all of which have been removed in the 2024 rules.

Also the limited spell splots are frustrating to new players who wanted to play a spellcaster to go buckwild with their spells and not to cast "Eldritch Blast" 95% of the time.

You're looking in the wrong place. Warlocks can go buckwild with their spells in ways no other class can. Those spells, however, are the invocations. No class can "go buckwild" with spells at low level. But a decently built warlock can cast a number of significant spells (up to and including Arcane Eye) as easily as other classes can cast cantrips.

 

[Ashrym]

Warlocks are also relatively easy on resource tracking. Pact Magic is a few spell slots all of the same level, cantrips are at-will, and Invocations uses for spells are typically at-will.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I agree with these distinctions of complexity, but Warlock has not just the locked-in complexity. Even if Warlock could change their class feats on every long rest, they still have much more options they need to decide on than a cleric. Than the limited spell slots force the player to have a good understanding of the rules and combat to decide when its actually worth to spent one of these very scarce resources. The only reason warlock often is stated as "newbie friendly" is that they always cast on highest spell level, but the impact for new players is highly overrated IMO - on level 1 every caster has only one spell level anyway. Spell slots on higher level grow gradually and at the time players need to handle multiple different spell levels - they are not complete newbies anymore and hopefully can handle it a bit better.

A level 1 or 2 warlock doesn't have fewer spell resources than any other level 1 caster. 1 spell per short rest is about two per long and 2 per short = 3 per long.

Haha, only after me and the other more experienced players adviced them to do so. But they still were frustrated to blast all the time and of of them plainly refused to, because it was boring. Interestingly they preferred to shoot their crossbow and had no problem with the crossbow being a "boring default attack roll". Because crowsbow shooting matched their expectations "target enemy, hit for damage". Meanwhile Eldritch Blast did not meet their expectations of magic, which should be more fantastic than "target enemy, hit for damage". Honestly, I cant blame them for that.

I'm not recommending Eldritch Blast to warlocks pre-level 5 under 2024 rules. Instead you get True Strike from levels 1-4. That extra Invocation is really useful.

 

[Ancalagon]

I've played them all over the last decade, and the warlock was by far the easiest for me. I recommend it to players who are new to the game and want to try a spellcaster because:

• Limited selection of spells means less decision paralysis, less pressure to "pick the right one" on every turn
• All spells use the same level (simpler resource management)
• Spell slots replenish after a short rest (less resource management)
• Versatile enough to fit most concepts. Wanna be a healer? Go with Celestial Pact. A witchy goth? Hexblade is here for you. A clever trickster? Archfey's got what you need.
• The best ranged attack in the game, which means your fragile character can hang out in the back out of harm's way but still be effective, even after running out of spell slots.

The warlock is pretty much Easy Mode for magic-users. And that's a good thing.

I find that the warlock is indeed a great class and good for a starting player that really wants to cast spells...

BUT

1: I've had a player complain - they felt the "pressure" to keep their precious few slots, and were bored with pew pew (the player switched to a ranger and is much happier now)

2: Warlock is easy to play. It's not so simple to build. There are many ways to build a flavorful and rather ineffective warlock :/

 

[Ancalagon]

There is none.

Not in the way people use 'simple' to justify the Fighter's poor design.

Yes, Warlock has the Eldritch Blast, but they also get variety in the form of Invocations, their spells, pacts, and patrons.

The warlock is the least complex cast, yes, but they still get so much compared to the class that was brutally restricted to allow for the Champion.

No other casters even comes close. The prep casters have daily homework in trying to guess what the DM is thinking; the bard has colleges and inspiration handling, the druid is a shapeshifter, and the sorcerer has metamagic.

So yeah, there's no simple casters. Wish I could say the same for martials.

I really am struggling to answer, because each class has its complexities. Perhaps that is the answer, none?