What kind of spells, if any, may be used in sneak attacks?
- Thread starter The Cardinal
- Start date
Well, that Ray of Frost sneak attack would do double damage to a Red Dragon, and zero damage to a White Dragon. (Because according to Tome and Blood, the extra sneak attack damage is the same type of damage as the attack used to deliver it).
You could potentially do 20d6+2d3 damage with a Ray of Frost against any (Fire) subtype creature.
Of course, by the time your rogue is able to do 10d6 on a sneak attack, any dragon they try this trick on is going have a signficant SR. If the rogue took a level of sorcerer or wizard to cast it, they will never be able to beat the SR of the Dragon. If they are casting it from an item or scroll, they still don't have a good chance of actually penetrating the dragons SR.
(Note: I personally don't have a problem with the rogue being able to do 10d6+1d3 damage with a ray of frost. It's the rogues class ability that is doing the damage, not the ray of frost. It can be a signficant bonus that the attack is being delivered as a touch attack though.)
You could potentially do 20d6+2d3 damage with a Ray of Frost against any (Fire) subtype creature.
Of course, by the time your rogue is able to do 10d6 on a sneak attack, any dragon they try this trick on is going have a signficant SR. If the rogue took a level of sorcerer or wizard to cast it, they will never be able to beat the SR of the Dragon. If they are casting it from an item or scroll, they still don't have a good chance of actually penetrating the dragons SR.
(Note: I personally don't have a problem with the rogue being able to do 10d6+1d3 damage with a ray of frost. It's the rogues class ability that is doing the damage, not the ray of frost. It can be a signficant bonus that the attack is being delivered as a touch attack though.)
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I think Caliban's right on this one. Just FYI, if the spell launches multiple attacks (eg Acid Orb), treat it like shuriken; only the *first* attack gets sneak attack damage. (I believe this rule has been confirmed by the Sage.)
That's what makes the Soulknife such a powerful PrC: Deep Impact and Sneak Attack.
That's what makes the Soulknife such a powerful PrC: Deep Impact and Sneak Attack.
IceBear
Explorer
I agree that the touch attack can be a significant bonus, and you are right about the multiple orbs being treated like shuiken (forgot to mention that). However, as was pointed out, instead of casting the one spell, the rogue could have fired multiple arrows instead and done a LOT more damage, so I see the touch attack benefit as a tradeoff to potential damage.
With the dragon example, I was talking about a *dagger* inflicting incredible amounts of damage to such a large creature as a comparison to how Ray of Frost could do the same to an ogre as a counter to Forrester's disbelief that it should be allowed.
IceBear
With the dragon example, I was talking about a *dagger* inflicting incredible amounts of damage to such a large creature as a comparison to how Ray of Frost could do the same to an ogre as a counter to Forrester's disbelief that it should be allowed.
IceBear
In other news, "blah blah blah blah blah"
It's unbalanced in that it's a touch attack, and ignores all armor. The image of a hasted Rogue9/wiz1 doing 20d6+4d3 damage to a red dragon each round, AUTOMATICALLY (assuming he breaks through SR) . . . disturbs me greatly.
And he's doing that with two 0th level spells + a potion of speed. No save involved. Probably needs a '2' to hit with each attack.
No, that's not unbalanced. Not at all.
On that subject, it's all extremely unrealistic that a melee TOUCH attack somehow does sneak-attack damage. Precisely how is this done? What is the mechanism? Just curious. Did you touch him in a ticklish spot? I know that realism is not supposed to matter in a combat system that ignores facing, but that's what Rule 0 is for.
As far as you sticking the dagger into the red dragon, I prefer to not ignore the following rule, unlike just about every DM and player out there:
"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."
Unless rogue-boy is standing next to the dragon's head or neck, he's not doing sneak-attack damage with his f'ing dagger. What, you're going to cut off his big toe for 10d6 pts of damage?
Incidentally, this gets my vote for the most ignored passage in the PHB. How many of you use it?
By the way, sorry if my tone is . . . harsh
. I didn't mean anything personally. Just a lousy day at work. And I really *do* think that this is one of those calls that's just . . . plain . . . dumb.
Next up: wizards crafting Wands of Fireballs at 5th level, due to the new Caster Level rulings.
PS -- Icebear -- the dagger sticking in the dragon is either highly magical, or it's not doing much damage in the end, because of the dragon's damage reduction. And you actually have to pierce that god-awful tough hide.
With a Ray of Frost, you get to ignore damage reduction with a 0th level spell. Do double damage. And ignore the armor completely. Yay cantrips!
It's unbalanced in that it's a touch attack, and ignores all armor. The image of a hasted Rogue9/wiz1 doing 20d6+4d3 damage to a red dragon each round, AUTOMATICALLY (assuming he breaks through SR) . . . disturbs me greatly.
And he's doing that with two 0th level spells + a potion of speed. No save involved. Probably needs a '2' to hit with each attack.
No, that's not unbalanced. Not at all.
On that subject, it's all extremely unrealistic that a melee TOUCH attack somehow does sneak-attack damage. Precisely how is this done? What is the mechanism? Just curious. Did you touch him in a ticklish spot? I know that realism is not supposed to matter in a combat system that ignores facing, but that's what Rule 0 is for.
As far as you sticking the dagger into the red dragon, I prefer to not ignore the following rule, unlike just about every DM and player out there:
"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."
Unless rogue-boy is standing next to the dragon's head or neck, he's not doing sneak-attack damage with his f'ing dagger. What, you're going to cut off his big toe for 10d6 pts of damage?
Incidentally, this gets my vote for the most ignored passage in the PHB. How many of you use it?
By the way, sorry if my tone is . . . harsh
. I didn't mean anything personally. Just a lousy day at work. And I really *do* think that this is one of those calls that's just . . . plain . . . dumb. Next up: wizards crafting Wands of Fireballs at 5th level, due to the new Caster Level rulings.
PS -- Icebear -- the dagger sticking in the dragon is either highly magical, or it's not doing much damage in the end, because of the dragon's damage reduction. And you actually have to pierce that god-awful tough hide.
With a Ray of Frost, you get to ignore damage reduction with a 0th level spell. Do double damage. And ignore the armor completely. Yay cantrips!
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IceBear
Explorer
Yup, I use it, but if the dragon has just reached down to bite the rogue, I'd have a hard time telling my rogue player that he couldn't time a blow to the eye when the dragon reached down to bite him.
There is one thing that I never let the rules do - override my common sense. I just have to problem with someone hitting the "sweet spot" with a ray of frost if they could do the same thing with an arrow.
Yes, the touch attack is a powerful perk. But, if the rogue is spending his action casting a spell he is giving up potential multiple attacks to do so. In the case of a dragon, the multiclassed rogue/wizard is either not going to have enough wizard levels to get through the SR, or if he has enough wizard levels to get through the SR, he isn't going to have enough rogue levels to do a lot of sneak attack damage.
BTW - how is the rogue getting these automatic sneak attacks each round against the dragon?
[Edit]
Of course it's a highly magical dagger - we're talking about a PC fighting an ancient red dragon here, he must be nearly 20th level at least
Bottom line is, by the RULES (and this is the RULES FORUM), this is allowed. You don't like this rule so you have Rule 0'ed it. If you had said that in a polite manner in the beginning we wouldn't be having this conversation.
IceBear
There is one thing that I never let the rules do - override my common sense. I just have to problem with someone hitting the "sweet spot" with a ray of frost if they could do the same thing with an arrow.
Yes, the touch attack is a powerful perk. But, if the rogue is spending his action casting a spell he is giving up potential multiple attacks to do so. In the case of a dragon, the multiclassed rogue/wizard is either not going to have enough wizard levels to get through the SR, or if he has enough wizard levels to get through the SR, he isn't going to have enough rogue levels to do a lot of sneak attack damage.
BTW - how is the rogue getting these automatic sneak attacks each round against the dragon?
[Edit]
Of course it's a highly magical dagger - we're talking about a PC fighting an ancient red dragon here, he must be nearly 20th level at least
Bottom line is, by the RULES (and this is the RULES FORUM), this is allowed. You don't like this rule so you have Rule 0'ed it. If you had said that in a polite manner in the beginning we wouldn't be having this conversation.
IceBear
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Mal Malenkirk
First Post
How the hell do you sneak attack a dragon with a ranged weapon? In his sleep? Oh, nevermind.
I agree that by the rules any spell that requires an attack roll and deal damage can be a sneak attack. Personnaly, I deny the possibility to do a critical hit (and therefore a sneak attack) with a select few spell that require an attack roll; those that deal negative energy. For example, the inflict wounds spell. First of all, it would be weird to do a critical inflict wound if you can't do a critical cure wound on your friends. And secondly, I don't believe it really matters wether you touch the throat or the little finger since you are only sapping life energy anyway.
But the ray of frost is a fine option for a sneak attack, altough if you are reduced to using this when facing a dragon you probably should run like hell instead.
I agree that by the rules any spell that requires an attack roll and deal damage can be a sneak attack. Personnaly, I deny the possibility to do a critical hit (and therefore a sneak attack) with a select few spell that require an attack roll; those that deal negative energy. For example, the inflict wounds spell. First of all, it would be weird to do a critical inflict wound if you can't do a critical cure wound on your friends. And secondly, I don't believe it really matters wether you touch the throat or the little finger since you are only sapping life energy anyway.
But the ray of frost is a fine option for a sneak attack, altough if you are reduced to using this when facing a dragon you probably should run like hell instead.
