What kind of spells, if any, may be used in sneak attacks?

[blickish]

Re: Re: Re: How about Fire giants instead of Red Dragons?

And unless you're flying, no, you aren't hitting vitals. Yeah, I know, there's arteries everywhere, sure there are, that's the usual rogue argument to weenie out of the PHB passage I quoted before. Nice try .

Just out of curiousity, how does the PHB define Vitals? I don't have mine handy. Are we to assume all sneak-attackable creature types have basically the same physiology? Even the magical ones? There aren't too many Vitals that'll kill you faster if sliced open than the big arteries in your groin/legs. Heart, brain, and spine are the only ones I can think of, but I'm no doctor.

I haven't played a rogue in 3rd, yet, so I'm not particularly biased. Just wondering what kind of sweeping assumptions come with that PHB passage.

 

[Ristamar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: How about Fire giants instead of Red Dragons?

Just out of curiousity, how does the PHB define Vitals? I don't have mine handy. Are we to assume all sneak-attackable creature types have basically the same physiology? Even the magical ones? There aren't too many Vitals that'll kill you faster if sliced open than the big arteries in your groin/legs. Heart, brain, and spine are the only ones I can think of, but I'm no doctor.

I haven't played a rogue in 3rd, yet, so I'm not particularly biased. Just wondering what kind of sweeping assumptions come with that PHB passage.

Basically, any creature that can be affected by sneak attack damage and critical hits has vitals, since that's what you're essentially hitting. Things like undead ,constructs, and oozes (as well as various other creatures) have no vitals, thus they are immune to critical hits.

 

[blickish]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How about Fire giants instead of Red Dragons?

Basically, any creature that can be affected by sneak attack damage and critical hits has vitals, since that's what you're essentially hitting. Things like undead ,constructs, and oozes (as well as various other creatures) have no vitals, thus they are immune to critical hits.

I knew all that stuff.. I just wondered if it said what the Vitals were, and where they were located...

 

[Ristamar]

I see... well, in that case, no, they are not defined.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

And as long as you can hit a humanoid's groin, IMC you can crit the creature.

--2c Spikey

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

It's clearly a case by case situation. I can't think of any hard rule that would help us altough guideline would help. It depends on the size of the critter, the size of the attacker, the posture of the victime and the size of the weapon you are using.

I only start thinking about this sort of things with really big monster. For example, IMO, a Cloud giant can't be sneak attacked with a short sword, but surely you can reach something vital if you use a longspear...

The trick is to be consistent.

 

[Voadam]

Pielorinho,

I believe whether a target makes his saving throw and takes half damage from an attack is irrelevant to how much damage the sneak attack does.

from the srd:

"Sneak Attack: Any time the rogue's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue's attack deals extra damage. The extra damage is +1d6 at 1st level and an additional 1d6 every two levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied."

Blickish,

As for the description of vitals, here is the only description in the srd:

"A rogue can only sneak attack a living creature with a discernible anatomy. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."

 

[Pielorinho]

Pielorinho,

I believe whether a target makes his saving throw and takes half damage from an attack is irrelevant to how much damage the sneak attack does.

I ask because Caliban pointed out that sneak attack damage is the same type of damage as that of the main attack. If the main attack's damage is halved, does that not also apply to the sneak attack damage? I know the SRD quote doesn't mention this, but I'm wondering if the clarification rules in T&B might apply.

Daniel

 

[jontherev]

I ask because Caliban pointed out that sneak attack damage is the same type of damage as that of the main attack. If the main attack's damage is halved, does that not also apply to the sneak attack damage? I know the SRD quote doesn't mention this, but I'm wondering if the clarification rules in T&B might apply.

Daniel

I don't think so. The damage from the spell is halved, because that's what the save is for: spell damage. However, though the sneak attack damage is the same type, it also represents damage caused from the sneak attack ability. This extra damage stems from a vital area being struck, which there is no save against. Just because it is the same damage type does not mean you get to save for half damage imo. BUT, I don't think there is a rule anywhere that will prove either side of this argument. As Caliban clarified, there are exceptions to this with elemental resistances and vulnerabilities. I would subtract any elemental resistance from the entire attack. However, if a successful save produces NO damage (instead of half damage), then the sneak attack damage disappears as well. IMO.

 

[Caliban]

I don't think so. The damage from the spell is halved, because that's what the save is for: spell damage. However, though the sneak attack damage is the same type, it also represents damage caused from the sneak attack ability. This extra damage stems from a vital area being struck, which there is no save against. Just because it is the same damage type does not mean you get to save for half damage imo. BUT, I don't think there is a rule anywhere that will prove either side of this argument. As Caliban clarified, there are exceptions to this with elemental resistances and vulnerabilities. I would subtract any elemental resistance from the entire attack. However, if a successful save produces NO damage (instead of half damage), then the sneak attack damage disappears as well. IMO.

I agree with jontherev. The sneak attack damage is seperate from the spell damage, it just has the same damage type (fire, cold, piercing, etc.) If the initial spell/attack is prevented from doing any actual damage, the sneak attack can't be delivered. (i.e. if you have evasion and avoid the damage from a flame arrow spell cast by an Arcane Trickster, no sneak attack damage would be possible.

It get's trickier when damage reduction/resistance comes into play. I think the damage is still delivered, it just affects the target less. So even if the spell/weapon doesn't penetrate the resistance/reduction, the sneak attack damage still occurs.

It's not always easy to adjudicate, but that's how I think it would work.