What kind of spells, if any, may be used in sneak attacks?

[Caliban]

I HOPE you guys aren't talking about me!

Btw, no one replied to my earlier post regarding the rule on doubling sneak attack damage. Normally, if you crit, you don't double (or triple) the sneak attack dice. So, it should follow that in circumstances like a ray of frost against a fire creature, that it also would not change. Can anyone show me a rule regarding this? I don't think sneak attack damage should EVER be doubled, by the rules. It doesn't matter that it is the same damage type. It's also the same damage type on a crit, but it doesn't get doubled there does it? Unless you provide a rule on this, I would assume that sneak attack damage is NEVER mulitplied. Comments?

Sorry, I didn't see your earlier question.

The only time it mentions sneak attack damage not being multiplied is in regards to critical hits (because bonus damage dice are never multiplied on a critical).

What I'm referring to is the vulnerability of creatures with an elemental subtype to certain kinds of attacks. i.e. Red Dragons have the fire subtype and take double damage from cold based attacks.

According to the Tome and Blood, a sneak attack has the same damage type as the attack used to deliver it. So doing a sneak attack with a dagger does extra Piercing damage, a sneak attack with a club does extra Bludgeoning damage, and a sneak attack with a ray of frost does extra cold damage.

Since Red Dragons take double damage from cold attacks, and the sneak damage is cold damage, it would take double the sneak attack damage.

 

[Forrester]

Unless you provide a rule on this, I would assume that sneak attack damage is NEVER mulitplied. Comments?

Caliban cited Tome and Blood, which stated that sneak-attack damage achieved through an attack is of the same type of damage caused in the regular attack.

Thus, if a sneak-attack using cold against a Fire Giant would normally do d3+5d6, that damage is *doubled* due to it all being cold damage (and it jumps to 2d3+10d6).

The doubling makes sense to me. The 5d6 of sneak-attack damage doesn't.

But you knew that .

 

[jontherev]

Sorry, I didn't see your earlier question.

The only time it mentions sneak attack damage not being multiplied is in regards to critical hits (because bonus damage dice are never multiplied on a critical).

What I'm referring to is the vulnerability of creatures with an elemental subtype to certain kinds of attacks. i.e. Red Dragons have the fire subtype and take double damage from cold based attacks.

According to the Tome and Blood, a sneak attack has the same damage type as the attack used to deliver it. So doing a sneak attack with a dagger does extra Piercing damage, a sneak attack with a club does extra Bludgeoning damage, and a sneak attack with a ray of frost does extra cold damage.

Since Red Dragons take double damage from cold attacks, and the sneak damage is cold damage, it would take double the sneak attack damage.

Yes I understood this part, which is what confuses me. It works very similar to a critical. The only reason you don't double sneak attack damage on a crit is for balance reasons (it doesn't make any logical sense, based on Tome and Blood). For example, let's say that rogue casts Ray of Frost on a Fire Dragon AND crits. This is a weird scenario according to your citation above. You wind up doubling the sneak attack damage due to the vulnerability, but NOT tripling it because you can't double sneak attack dice on a crit, even though it IS cold damage. Huh? It's cold damage, so it should get doubled too. But it doesn't because there's a rule for this. That's why I'm inclined to apply logic here and say under no circumstances can sneak attack damage be multiplied. Am I making this too complex or what? It just seems to break down into paradox when you crit.

 

[Caliban]

Yes I understood this part, which is what confuses me. It works very similar to a critical. The only reason you don't double sneak attack damage on a crit is for balance reasons (it doesn't make any logical sense, based on Tome and Blood).

It does make logical sense: A sneak attack is already a type of critical. Since it's already hitting in a critical spot, gettin a natural critical won't increase it any. It just doubles the weapon damage (you twist it in the wound or something).

For example, let's say that rogue casts Ray of Frost on a Fire Dragon AND crits. This is a weird scenario according to your citation above. You wind up doubling the sneak attack damage due to the vulnerability, but NOT tripling it because you can't double sneak attack dice on a crit, even though it IS cold damage.

The fact that it's cold damage means it gets doubled no matter where you hit them, even if it's not a critical (unless there is a save involved).

It being a critical is irrelevant, because a critical increases the damage based on where you hit them, not on what you hit them with.

Now the base damage from the ray of frost will be doubled because it's cold, and tripled on a critical (because of the D&D multiplying rules). It does one extra d3 because it's cold, and one extra d3 because it hit in a vulnerable spot.

Huh? It's cold damage, so it should get doubled too. But it doesn't because there's a rule for this. That's why I'm inclined to apply logic here and say under no circumstances can sneak attack damage be multiplied. Am I making this too complex or what? It just seems to break down into paradox when you crit.

You may be overthinking it. Taking extra damage because you are vulnerable to a specific attack form seems to be completely seperate from taking extra damage because of where the attack hit you.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Perhaps you've heard of this spell called "Haste" . . . it's quite nifty. And it's how the rogue is getting two Ray of Frosts per round.

I figured that's what you were talking about from the beginning. The reason I didn't bring it up is because all of the counter-arguments I made work equally well under the assumption that haste is being used. Moreover, your Rog9/Wiz1 doesn't have the ability to cast that spell. A Wiz10 does, for example, and he can use the spell to throw two massive-damage cold spells per round. A 10th-level straight rogue who's the recipient of the spell can tumble to flank, SA, and tumble out.

And is the giant getting a saving throw against those "Cold Orbs" you speak of? I'm guessing he is, if it's a 1st level spell being thrown.

Nope. Lesser cold orb is a ranged touch attack, just like ray of frost. It's like MM, but it's elemental damage and requires an RTA. Balanced, IMHO.

And we've already gone through the problems with the rogue sneak-attacking physically. Namely, he has to get UP to the beasty, risk getting attacked, pierce the armor, and he has to make sure he can attack a vital area. And not all DMs are nice enough to say that a monster's ankles count as "vitals".

The Rog9/Wiz1 uses haste, the Rog10 uses it. Moreover, the Rog10 can flank by moving up to the giant. The Rog9/Wiz1 can't flank with a ranged SA. More importantly, since we are assuming the same conditions, each rogue is probably getting SA because the giant is either flatfooted, stunned, etc. or the rogue is invisible. In that case, the Rog10 throws daggers at up to 30', and risks getting attacked as little as the Rog9/Wiz1.

Finally, at the rate he's killing monsters, I think that the Rogue/Wiz is going to be able to reach 10th level in rogue pretty damn soon. I can't even believe you are making this argument.

Well, believe it; after all, your counterargument relies on the fact that the Rog/Wiz will advance FASTER in level because he kills more things. My argument is that the Rogue is just as good at killing things. If my POV is correct, then your Rog/Wiz will NOT advance faster. QED.

Yeah, he's got 6 skill points less, one BAB less (sometimes), and has to wait one more level for Opportunist or Slippery Mind. And he gets to do the Ray of Frost trick X times a day AND read from arcane scrolls and use any arcane magical items without having to worry about blowing a Use Magical Device roll.

I don't doubt that there's lots of benefit to taking a level of wizard. A level of cleric would grant access to domain powers. A level of fighter would grant a bonus feat. A level of ranger would give Ambidexterity and TWF (and if you're REALLY worried about SA, you should check that combo out).

Other Finally -- yes, if you allow a bunch of splatbook stuff, like Energy Substitution and this Cold Orb thing, then the wizards are even more powerful than before.

I will point out that the entire "SA damage = elemental damage" rule is from T&B, the same splatbook in which Energy Substitution and the lesser cold orb spell may be found.

Finally, note that I didn't even need to use Energy Substitution as an example; I used it to show how a SIXTH-level sorcerer could do more damage to a fire giant. If you happen to have the right spell handy, elemental subtypes can be insanely vulnerable. A 10th-level wiz/sor will use cone of cold and do 20d6 damage to MULTIPLE fire giants in the same time at which the Rog9/Wiz1 can do 2d3+10d6 damage to ONE giant IF the giant is denied his Dex bonus.

But then again, wizards are by far the most powerful class in the game -- especially with their Haste/Improved Invisibility tricks. Or did you miss that thread?

Sarky, aren't we? Anyway, I do find your tone a bit strong, so I'll avoid continuing the argument. Just house-rule it away and have done.

 

[IceBear]

Sarky, aren't we? Anyway, I do find your tone a bit strong, so I'll avoid continuing the argument. Just house-rule it away and have done.

This is what I've decided too

IceBear

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Well, I've just partially scanned the thread, so I' hoping I'm about to add something new:

Even if you are contributing to a flank, you don't get a flanking bonus if you are not attacking with a melee weapon. Having an ally on the opposite side of an enemy doesn't give you + to hit with a ranged attack.

Yes, a rogue 9/sorc 1 who is imp. invis'd and hasted can do more damage than a barbarian 10. Now give the barbarian haste and imp. invis. and see what happens.

All WotC splat books are official rules. Saying that anything non-core is not official is just silly and saying that a player who uses stuff from them is a twink is dumb because a) twink doesn't mean that and b) using the suppliments is why they are there.

A rogue with a ring of blinking and the expert tactician feat is an effective combatant and certainly not munchkin because of those two things.

Also, a rogue with no sorcerer levels DOESN'T have to get right next to the giant, and he CAN reach its vitals. Have you ever heard of this thing called a bow? Like haste, its in the PHB.

Why is a ray of frost to the face so hard to imagine doing a lot of damage? Would a laser to the face do more damage IRL than a laser to, say, the hand? Well, a ray of frost is like a laser that is cold instead of hot. Why is that so hard to imagine?

--Quiet Spikey

 

[jontherev]

Well, I've just partially scanned the thread, so I' hoping I'm about to add something new:

Even if you are contributing to a flank, you don't get a flanking bonus if you are not attacking with a melee weapon. Having an ally on the opposite side of an enemy doesn't give you + to hit with a ranged attack.

Yes, a rogue 9/sorc 1 who is imp. invis'd and hasted can do more damage than a barbarian 10. Now give the barbarian haste and imp. invis. and see what happens.

All WotC splat books are official rules. Saying that anything non-core is not official is just silly and saying that a player who uses stuff from them is a twink is dumb because a) twink doesn't mean that and b) using the suppliments is why they are there.

A rogue with a ring of blinking and the expert tactician feat is an effective combatant and certainly not munchkin because of those two things.

Also, a rogue with no sorcerer levels DOESN'T have to get right next to the giant, and he CAN reach its vitals. Have you ever heard of this thing called a bow? Like haste, its in the PHB.

Why is a ray of frost to the face so hard to imagine doing a lot of damage? Would a laser to the face do more damage IRL than a laser to, say, the hand? Well, a ray of frost is like a laser that is cold instead of hot. Why is that so hard to imagine?

--Quiet Spikey

*tosses Spikey a Bracelet of Friends* Hey, if you ever need a flank, I'm there.

 

[Uller]

I don't see it as unbalancing at all.

A Rog9/Src1 can a few times per day get a sneak attack with a ranged touch attack. Big deal. It is not like he can sit back and do it all day long and he has to forgoe his iterative attacks to do it(and is forever one BAB lower than he normally would be). Personally, I don't allow PCs to take a single level of a class unless they come up with some reasonable RP reason for it.

Other 10th level characters can(and should be able to) do similar amounts of damage and don't have to have special circumstances to do it. Think about what a 10th level wizard can do with a fireball and a metamagic feat or two applied to it to a cold-subtype creature...He can conceivably catch several creatures with a single such attack!

 

[kreynolds]

Other 10th level characters can(and should be able to) do similar amounts of damage and don't have to have special circumstances to do it. Think about what a 10th level wizard can do with a fireball and a metamagic feat or two applied to it to a cold-subtype creature...He can conceivably catch several creatures with a single such attack!

Yeah, but a wizards hit points suck, so it balances out really well.