What makes a good sorcerer?

[Goumindong]

Why do you all like dazzling ray so much?
Assume you have 18 cha and 16 secondary damage ability (yes, I know you have 18&18 or 19&18, but that does not help dazzling ray on this one!)
If you hit with dazzling ray, you deal 6d6+7, that's 28 damage on average, and only half if you miss...
If you take Dragonfang Bolt instead, you can target two creatures, you do 2d8+7 damage to each, that sums up to 32 damage on average and on hit you deal 5 ongoing damage (so if you hit it's 42 damage actually). And you deal full damage on miss!!!
For each damage point you get from weapon and increased ability scores you actually get two!

Extra Damage on one target is typically worth more than an equal amount of damage on two targets. IIRC, the efficiency break point is around 3/2. I.E. if you're hitting 2 enemies you need to be doing roughly 50% more total DPR in order to make it valuable.

 

[zlac]

for dragonfangs (per target) it's 16 on miss, 16 plus 9 on hit
(5 ongoing damage, 55% chance to save = 9 on average)

for dazzling ray it's 14 on miss, 28 on hit


if you assume 60% "average" to hit reflex and 50% to hit fortitude (harder to hit than reflex...):
dazzling ray: 22.4
dragonfang: 41
83% more

if you assume 80% "average" to hit reflex and 70% to hit fortitude, it's:
dazzling ray: 25.2
dragonfang: 44.6
77% more

It's safe to say that dragonfangs deal at least 80% more average damage, and it goes up with ability score increases and magic weapons (around 90% if you get 5 more damage)!

 

[Wycen]

Avoiding any number crunching, I'll tell you why I'd avoid taking the dragonfang power - now, I don't have the rules in front of me, but I'm willing to bet that you have to have the draconic power source in order to get the cool, 'nifty add-on power' of the dragon power source. That's why I'd probably not take it.

 

[DracoSuave]

Avoiding any number crunching, I'll tell you why I'd avoid taking the dragonfang power - now, I don't have the rules in front of me, but I'm willing to bet that you have to have the draconic power source in order to get the cool, 'nifty add-on power' of the dragon power source. That's why I'd probably not take it.

Nope.

It's target one or two creatures, ranged 10, Attack Fortitude.

Hit: 2d8 + Cha, ongoing 5 poison.
Miss: 2d8 + Cha.

Seriously. It does the same damage on a miss as on a hit, the only difference is the ongoing damage.

Even if it -had- a Spell Source add-on, it's already made of win.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Yeah...that's pretty much gonna get errata. Every other power I can think of that has a similar design is:

Hit: 2dX+X, ongoing 5
Miss: Half damage, no ongoing

 

[DracoSuave]

Wouldn't be too sure about that.... the sorcerer's got a collection of powers that don't mention half damage, but have a flat-out damage roll:

Chromatic Orb (Daily 1)
Dragonfang Bolt (Daily 1)
Prismatic Explosion (Daily 19)
Prismatic Storm (Daily 29)
Prismatic Bolt (Wild Mage Daily 20)

Seems to me that it isn't errata country, that it's actually an intended feature of the class.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

You're right. Prismatic Orb, Prismatic Explosion, and Prismatic Storm actually deal less than half damage on a miss. Good catch, thanks for the support.

 

[Eldorian]

You're right. Prismatic Orb, Prismatic Explosion, and Prismatic Storm actually deal less than half damage on a miss. Good catch, thanks for the support.

Not quite. The damage on the miss is a damage roll, so it gets full bonuses to damage, instead of half bonuses. So, if your bonus to damage is high enough, you deal more than half damage on a miss.

 

[CapnZapp]

Does anyone else find halflings as the premier chaos sorcerer conceptually jarring? I mean, drow, sure; but halflings?

It really is time Wizards gave us official rules that allowed any race to work better for any class.

I have a hard time seeing the underlying design balance issue that "forces" Wizards to assign a specific pair of stat boosts to each class with no flexibility, thus creating strange things all over.

There are already too many examples. It needs to end, and soon.

 

[DracoSuave]

There's more to some classes than +2 to Blee, +2 to Blah. A lot of people think Elves make great wizards because of Elven Accuracy making up for the lack of Int boost. Dwarves can be awesome fighters without +2 Str because of what else they bring to the table.

And then you crack open Martial Power and you can see, for -every class and race- there's a feat designed to make that race work.

Does this mean I expect to see Deva feats for Sorcerers in Arcane Power? You bet! I expect to see at least one Halfling Wizard feat, and you know what? There's probably going to be Half-Orc feats in there.

HALF-ORCS ARE BAD AT ARCANE! is the clamor from on high.... but they'll toss half-orc swordmages a bone. Did they need a bone? Who cares?


I think a lot of the problem comes from the 'must push every envelope' mentality that pervades many D&D players. Munchkinism. My group's got a Tiefling Warlord in it, and he is awesome. Now, he took that power from Martial Power that, if you're a warlord and you infernal wrath, you also grant combat advantage against your enemy to all your friends.

Now, that said, Tieflings are one of those races you can -make- work with pretty much any class you want. Bloodhunt IS that good.

Someone in the group said 'That's pointless, we don't have a rogue, so no sneak attack.' I responded 'If you can find a character that doesn't like +2 to hit, then I suggest that character isn't in D&D.'

Fact is, you don't have to push the envelope on every class or ability. Not every 'secondary' ability has to be maxed out to be effective. Not every primary ability has to be 18, 16 is sometimes good enough.

Don't get me wrong, minmaxing has it's place. If I make a gnomish paladin, I'm going to minmax to make the concept work with as much awesomeness as possible.

But I'm not going to let minmaxing tell me 'Gnomish Paladin' is bad. Because that's not correct.