What makes a successful superhero game?

[Theory of Games]

...

The point is not whether I like how MSH plays or not. We were talking about whether or not the system can easily recreate common scenes from the comics; DD taking on 5 thugs is about as common as it gets, and MSH can't really recreate it well.

You're basing the strength of a system's design on one isolated play scenario? Daredevil NEVER EVER wins that fight no matter how many times you play it out? C'mon. I mean if you don't like the system, I get it - but making comments like that

 

[Eric V]

You're basing the strength of a system's design on one isolated play scenario? Daredevil NEVER EVER wins that fight no matter how many times you play it out? C'mon. I mean if you don't like the system, I get it - but making comments like that

Dude...just say you didn't read what I wrote.

 

[Theory of Games]

Dude...just say you didn't read what I wrote.

Let's agree to disagree here

 

[Eric V]

Let's agree to disagree here

We aren't going to agree that you read what I wrote. If you had, you would have seen this:

"DD is still overwhelmingly likely to win this battle, but he’s likely to sustain noticeable (if not significant) damage before the encounter is over."

and as such wouldn't have written this:

"Daredevil NEVER EVER wins that fight no matter how many times you play it out?"

Right?

And this is hardly the only example where MSH can't replicate with reliability common scenes from the comics. It's not a useless system or anything, but if we're talking about being true to the stories told in the mags, then there are certainly better choices.

 

[jian]

I totally agree it’s not a scenario that MSH is designed for. Daredevil will win that fight but he’ll take some lumps and, more importantly, it will be a boring slog.

There are ways of speeding it up* if you want to be a kind GM who wants to encourage vigilante action, but as written, the analysis is correct.

*What I’d do off the top of my head: let characters use an evasive action every round with a -1CS penalty to their main action; encourage use of the multiple action rules, arguing that DD can use his MN super-senses rather than his Fighting to roll multiple actions; say the mooks have half Health (or run away or play dead at half Health).

 

[overgeeked]

I’d agree. To use MSH rules, the O5 probably had something like the following powers and abilities when they first appeared:

• Stats TY (6) across the board unless otherwise stated
• Bobby: EX (20) ice creation and control
• Hank: EX Strength, RM (30) Agility - note that this gives him 62 Health, or more than double many of his teammates’
• Jean: EX telekinesis, GD (10) Psyche
• Scott: RM optic blasts, GD Agility, +1CS to hit with his blasts
• Warren: TY Flight, RM Agility

It’s of course worth noting that Magneto was at best rocking IN (40) magnetic control at this point. Charles probably only had IN telepathy and TY telekinesis. Everyone has invested a lot of Karma into their stats since then.

Okay. So the original five X-Men before Jean gets telepathy in issue 43. Cool.

Not arguing with the numbers listed, but you can see how the team isn't all the same power level, right?

It's not just the rank, it's the versatility of the power that matters. This is what point-buy systems try so desperately to account for.

Warren has TY flight...which Jean can mimic with her EX telekinesis.

Hank has EX strength...which Jean can mimic at a distance with her EX telekinesis.

Bobby can hit for EX damage with his ice...which Jean can match with her EX telekinesis.

In DC Heroes, telekinesis costs 15 hero points to access plus 6 hero points per rank. Scott's energy blast costs 15 to access and 3 per rank...half as much as telekinesis. Flight is 10 to access and 2 per rank. Wildly, ice creation is 20 to access and 10 per rank...so Bobby is wildly more powerful in DCH than the rest of the team. Assuming rank 10 all around, Jean's telekinesis costs 75 points while Bobby's ice creation costs 120 points. Raising Jean's equivalent to psyche would not account for the 45 point difference.

 

[overgeeked]

I totally agree it’s not a scenario that MSH is designed for. Daredevil will win that fight but he’ll take some lumps and, more importantly, it will be a boring slog.

There are ways of speeding it up* if you want to be a kind GM who wants to encourage vigilante action, but as written, the analysis is correct.

*What I’d do off the top of my head: let characters use an evasive action every round with a -1CS penalty to their main action; encourage use of the multiple action rules, arguing that DD can use his MN super-senses rather than his Fighting to roll multiple actions; say the mooks have half Health (or run away or play dead at half Health).

Eh. It ignores so much of the system to make it not work. Karma, stuns, and slams account for a lot. Assuming DD only ever just hits without additional effect is a big thumb on the scale. Assuming DD never uses his senses to his advantage is another big thumb on the scale. Like so much white-room theorycrafting it ignores most if not all the actual relevant context both in the game and the source material to make a wildly off-the-mark point.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Okay. So the original five X-Men before Jean gets telepathy in issue 43. Cool.

Not arguing with the numbers listed, but you can see how the team isn't all the same power level, right?

The question is, in how many games does being exactly the same power level matter? It might be preferred but those are not the same thing. Even if you decide to build them to match the comics rather than using whatever character gen system is at hand, that incarnation of the X-Men (or even the one when Jean's telepathy starts being a thing) is not so far off sync with one another there's liable to be a perception of winners and losers.

There are groups that are like that. And sometimes the reason for that isn't going to be fixed by almost any set of mechanics, because its not a raw power issue (really true Swiss Army knife characters are going to be perceived as favored children by a lot of people in virtually any system, narrative, representative or anywhere in between (Martian Manhunter, I'm looking at you). Sometimes it is. But that still doesn't mean the game system desperately needs to be able to represent Superman and Green Arrow with their actual difference in power level in the same game and make it work. Not even all versions media with those two felt that was necessary.

 

[overgeeked]

It doesn't just depend on the tactics; the math of the game means it can't simulate what happens in the comics very well.

Keeping with my example, in the comic books, 5 thugs is not really a challenge for Daredevil; it's a pretty standard breeze-through encounter for him. DC Heroes RPG has a system that can mimic this comic book fight well. Here's Ray Winninger on the issue:

"In MSH, though, he has a tough time. Those thugs each have 28 Health so DD has to successfully hit each of them twice in order to render them all unconscious. That’s ten successful hits in all, which will probably take him 12 rounds to achieve. (If he’s lucky, he can shave a round or two off with Stuns and Slams).
That’s ten to 12 rounds that the remaining thugs get to beat back at him. DD is still overwhelmingly likely to win this battle, but he’s likely to sustain noticeable (if not significant) damage before the encounter is over.
Things are even worse if you pit him against five assassins from the Hand (in the comics, he can easily handle 2-3 times this number).
Similarly, DD battling the thugs is a long, drawn-out battle (usually lasting ten full rounds or more), while such an insignificant encounter should probably end quickly. The same problem plagues the Punisher, Black Panther, Elektra or any other “street-level” character.
Sure DD can always spend Karma to win such a battle faster, but it doesn’t seem right that he should be forced to tap his precious Karma reserve for such a nuisance."

All due respect to Ray, but he's ignoring a lot of MSH and there's a similar but far worse problem in DCH.

MSH. Daredevil has F In (40), S Gd (10); Billy Club does Ex (20) damage and he has +2CS to hit with it, or F Mn (75). Advanced MSH, Judge's Book, p27.

Thug has F Gd (1) and Ty (6) other physical stats and 28 health. Advanced MSH, Judge's Book, p62.

So DD has a 20% chance to miss, 30% to hit, 35% to slam, and 15% to stun.

The thug has E Ty (6), which gives him an 80% to be stunned or slammed, if he is slammed, it's lights out as any slam would be into a wall or other surface which would zero out the thug's health.

The key thing he skipped is the multiple attacks rules. DD has a 70% to make two attacks in a round (green In (40) check), with a -1CS to each, so only Am (50) to hit with the billy club. If his attempt to make two attacks fails, he's at -3CS...which drops his to hit chance by 15%.

In all, it's far fewer than 12 rounds for DD to take out 5 thugs in a stand-up fight without using any tactics, any powers, or any karma.

DCH. DC Heroes uses 2d10 with exploding dice on any doubles except 1s. Double 1s is an auto fail. So every swing there's a 9% chance of exploding dice. The dice can infinitely explode. Sure, there's diminishing chances of doubles as you keep rolling.

This gives us the reverse problem. Which is so, so much worse...

A street thug can KO Superman with one luck shot.

Yes, I'm fully aware that ignores hero points and a large amount of the actual mechanics of the game.

That's intentional. I'm giving an equal an opposite counter to Ray's DD vs 5 thugs problem...which ignores karma and a large amount of the actual mechanics of the game.