What makes a successful superhero game?

[Dannyalcatraz]

There are severa kinds of Team comics I've seen...

Fantastic Four, X-Men, TMNT: Most of the cast is stable long term, some changes at reboots. Characters are created specifically for the team... tho' certain characters may also have solo series.

The TV "Why the «bleep» are they together?" ones, such as Superfriends/JLA. Spiderman & Friends (Spidey, Firestar, and Iceman).

The team of shared threat: pretty much any of the Secret Wars or "Crisis of" titles. Avengers is clearly this in the movie. Age of Ultron isn't. Supergirl, The Arrow and The Flash crossovers on TV, noting that Supergirl is a different continuity, and the characters discuss the differences onscreen.

Then you have the Unit model: they're part of some agency, and are assigned together, no choice involved. Agents of Shield is the key exemplar on TV. A close variant is the Master and students, such as New Mutants.

And finally, the family model: in the TV Arrow show. Red Arrow is Olly's sister. The Canary is his exGF. White Canary is his exGF's sister, and Olly's fling... Plus Olly's Bodyguard sometimes doubles as The Arrow. Two big disfunctional families. Oh, and they all are hunted by the father of the Canary sisters.
Also, Supergirl and Superman teamups. The occasional calling upon the Amazons in Wonder Woman. Thor and other Norse Gods in Marvel. Even, occasionally, teaming up with Loki.

I've probably missed some nuanced subset... I don't right know which flavor Teen Titans is.

But not everyone wants to be the team of professionals of Alpha Flight ot the X-Men, and many wouldn't want to play the ad-hoc team who decide to stay together.

I generally agree with your supercladistics*, with minor quibbles & observations.

1) it should be noted that some groups belong to more than one clade. The FF are a tight group (C1) but they’re also a family (C5).

2) I’d add Derivative Groups as C6. These are groups that were spun off of/inspired by another established group, which could happen for a variety of reasons. The West Coast & Great Lakes Avengers, the Teen Titans, and The Legion of Substitute Heroes would be exemplars.

3) C3 groups often form for the nebulous reason of increasing efficacy via teamwork with other extraordinary beings. That’s definitely the vibe you got from the early JLA and Avengers.

4) I’d also add C3a: groups that are temporary alliances by their intrinsic nature. One major example of this would be from the original Secret Wars. While the heroes naturally allied with each other, the only reason they were ALL together was the actions of The Beyonder. Normally, they were too scattered around the world and with different crimefighting goals to work together. (Yes, this particular group also belongs in C4; see my first point.)




* they’re expialidocious

 

[jian]

There are severa kinds of Team comics I've seen...

Fantastic Four, X-Men, TMNT: Most of the cast is stable long term, some changes at reboots. Characters are created specifically for the team... tho' certain characters may also have solo series.

The TV "Why the «bleep» are they together?" ones, such as Superfriends/JLA. Spiderman & Friends (Spidey, Firestar, and Iceman).

The team of shared threat: pretty much any of the Secret Wars or "Crisis of" titles. Avengers is clearly this in the movie. Age of Ultron isn't. Supergirl, The Arrow and The Flash crossovers on TV, noting that Supergirl is a different continuity, and the characters discuss the differences onscreen.

Then you have the Unit model: they're part of some agency, and are assigned together, no choice involved. Agents of Shield is the key exemplar on TV. A close variant is the Master and students, such as New Mutants.

And finally, the family model: in the TV Arrow show. Red Arrow is Olly's sister. The Canary is his exGF. White Canary is his exGF's sister, and Olly's fling... Plus Olly's Bodyguard sometimes doubles as The Arrow. Two big disfunctional families. Oh, and they all are hunted by the father of the Canary sisters.
Also, Supergirl and Superman teamups. The occasional calling upon the Amazons in Wonder Woman. Thor and other Norse Gods in Marvel. Even, occasionally, teaming up with Loki.

I've probably missed some nuanced subset... I don't right know which flavor Teen Titans is.

But not everyone wants to be the team of professionals of Alpha Flight ot the X-Men, and many wouldn't want to play the ad-hoc team who decide to stay together.

It’s a good breakdown. It does allow discussions of whether the X-men are Master and Students, Shared Threat, Stable Team (Team Stable?) or Found Family. They’ve been all of the above, and nowadays in the post-Krakoa era they’re also Giant Playbox (take whoever you like in a big handful and take them for a spin for a one-off campaign).

My current X-men campaign is basically Shared Threat, moving to Found Family.

 

[Eric V]

There were other defensive options: Evasion was ideal for close combat, as well as Blocking. I mean, the player making the FEAT roll might botch it, but the option was there regardless. The player could take both a defensive and offensive action on the same turn, which for a combat system, was well ahead of its time

I looked at the rules to be sure...evading* ("The Evading character makes no attacks that round" page 27) and blocking ("The character using a block may take no other action..." page 28) meant no attacking at all. So...the DD vs. 5 thugs problems remains...yes?

*And again, evading only works on 1 combatant

 

[Theory of Games]

I looked at the rules to be sure...evading* ("The Evading character makes no attacks that round" page 27) and blocking ("The character using a block may take no other action..." page 28) meant no attacking at all. So...the DD vs. 5 thugs problems remains...yes?

*And again, evading only works on 1 combatant

Well just depends on your tactics. The game allowed for a single character to perform multiple attacks against multiple opponents, as well. There aren't any perfect systems, but MSH was decent at emulating comic book fights - and sometimes the bad guys did get the best of the hero

 

[Thomas Shey]

That doesn't match my experience with most of those teams at all.

The original X-Men, Cyclops, Jean Grey, etc. All different power levels. Unless somehow Beast with his big feet and acrobatics was on par with Jean's telepathy and telekinesis. Which he wasn't. The All-New, All-Different X-Men circa 1975's Giant-Sized X-Men #1 with Storm...an African goddess who can control the weather for miles around...standing shoulder-to-shoulder with a teleporting acrobat who blends into shadows, aka Nightcrawler. Literally pick an X-Team and they'll have different power levels.

In practice, I would indeed argue the five were of approximately the same power level (I'd consider a counterargument regarding Angel); Jean's telekinesis was not particularly strong at that period and she had no telepathy during the early days of the character.

So yes, my perception of these characters is apparently quite different from yours.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well just depends on your tactics. The game allowed for a single character to perform multiple attacks against multiple opponents, as well. There aren't any perfect systems, but MSH was decent at emulating comic book fights - and sometimes the bad guys did get the best of the hero

The problem is that fairly minimalist opponents were in some ways the worst against these, and those are normally the ones they're strongest again. I'm afraid I can't view that as emulating comic book fights well.

(Note: its common for there to be a problem where avoidance as a defense is inferior to being able to take a hit, but this was a pretty extreme case).

 

[jian]

In practice, I would indeed argue the five were of approximately the same power level (I'd consider a counterargument regarding Angel); Jean's telekinesis was not particularly strong at that period and she had no telepathy during the early days of the character.

So yes, my perception of these characters is apparently quite different from yours.

I’d agree. To use MSH rules, the O5 probably had something like the following powers and abilities when they first appeared:

• Stats TY (6) across the board unless otherwise stated
• Bobby: EX (20) ice creation and control
• Hank: EX Strength, RM (30) Agility - note that this gives him 62 Health, or more than double many of his teammates’
• Jean: EX telekinesis, GD (10) Psyche
• Scott: RM optic blasts, GD Agility, +1CS to hit with his blasts
• Warren: TY Flight, RM Agility

It’s of course worth noting that Magneto was at best rocking IN (40) magnetic control at this point. Charles probably only had IN telepathy and TY telekinesis. Everyone has invested a lot of Karma into their stats since then.

 

[Eric V]

Well just depends on your tactics. The game allowed for a single character to perform multiple attacks against multiple opponents, as well. There aren't any perfect systems, but MSH was decent at emulating comic book fights - and sometimes the bad guys did get the best of the hero

It doesn't just depend on the tactics; the math of the game means it can't simulate what happens in the comics very well.

Keeping with my example, in the comic books, 5 thugs is not really a challenge for Daredevil; it's a pretty standard breeze-through encounter for him. DC Heroes RPG has a system that can mimic this comic book fight well. Here's Ray Winninger on the issue:

"In MSH, though, he has a tough time. Those thugs each have 28 Health so DD has to successfully hit each of them twice in order to render them all unconscious. That’s ten successful hits in all, which will probably take him 12 rounds to achieve. (If he’s lucky, he can shave a round or two off with Stuns and Slams).
That’s ten to 12 rounds that the remaining thugs get to beat back at him. DD is still overwhelmingly likely to win this battle, but he’s likely to sustain noticeable (if not significant) damage before the encounter is over.
Things are even worse if you pit him against five assassins from the Hand (in the comics, he can easily handle 2-3 times this number).
Similarly, DD battling the thugs is a long, drawn-out battle (usually lasting ten full rounds or more), while such an insignificant encounter should probably end quickly. The same problem plagues the Punisher, Black Panther, Elektra or any other “street-level” character.
Sure DD can always spend Karma to win such a battle faster, but it doesn’t seem right that he should be forced to tap his precious Karma reserve for such a nuisance."

 

[Theory of Games]

It doesn't just depend on the tactics; the math of the game means it can't simulate what happens in the comics very well.

Keeping with my example, in the comic books, 5 thugs is not really a challenge for Daredevil; it's a pretty standard breeze-through encounter for him. DC Heroes RPG has a system that can mimic this comic book fight well. Here's Ray Winninger on the issue:

"In MSH, though, he has a tough time. Those thugs each have 28 Health so DD has to successfully hit each of them twice in order to render them all unconscious. That’s ten successful hits in all, which will probably take him 12 rounds to achieve. (If he’s lucky, he can shave a round or two off with Stuns and Slams).
That’s ten to 12 rounds that the remaining thugs get to beat back at him. DD is still overwhelmingly likely to win this battle, but he’s likely to sustain noticeable (if not significant) damage before the encounter is over.
Things are even worse if you pit him against five assassins from the Hand (in the comics, he can easily handle 2-3 times this number).
Similarly, DD battling the thugs is a long, drawn-out battle (usually lasting ten full rounds or more), while such an insignificant encounter should probably end quickly. The same problem plagues the Punisher, Black Panther, Elektra or any other “street-level” character.
Sure DD can always spend Karma to win such a battle faster, but it doesn’t seem right that he should be forced to tap his precious Karma reserve for such a nuisance."

I mean ... if DD's player rolls poorly and the Judge (GM) rolls well, ONE thug could take out DD It's a game and I like that sometimes the good guy doesn't win - largely because it's consistent with most comic books. If you don't like how MSH plays, there's tons of alternatives

 

[Eric V]

I mean ... if DD's player rolls poorly and the Judge (GM) rolls well, ONE thug could take out DD It's a game and I like that sometimes the good guy doesn't win - largely because it's consistent with most comic books. If you don't like how MSH plays, there's tons of alternatives

...

The point is not whether I like how MSH plays or not. We were talking about whether or not the system can easily recreate common scenes from the comics; DD taking on 5 thugs is about as common as it gets, and MSH can't really recreate it well.