What makes a successful superhero game?

[overgeeked]

Ok, so in your scenario, DD always uses his club (because sure, why not?) but in the comics he doesn't (doesn't have to) and he still doesn't have any trouble with the thugs. But let's just assume club.

No, in Ray's scenario he assumes DD only uses his billy club. If you looked at the stats I posted and knew the basics of the game you'd see that.

As Ray noted, DD still needs to hit each thug twice, unless they get slammed into a wall. I guess let's hope there's a wall there? Sure, why not.

Does DD no longer fight in hallways or in Hell's Kitchen in New York City? There's walls and buildings everywhere. It's about the safest assumption in this whole thing that there are walls nearby.

I don't think Ray ignored the multiple attack rules. He just noted that they need to be hit twice each.

Right, whoever translated that 12 swings into 12 rounds ignored the multiple attack rules.

DD will fail to make 2 attacks per round 30% of the time (which seems like way too often for a fighter of his caliber), and he will also miss one out of every four of those multiple attacks. When he does fail that Feat check for multiple attacks, his lone attack has a 35% miss chance.

Yep, that's in my post.

I think if we just do the math we'll see Ray is closer to being right than wrong; maybe not quite 10 rounds, but certainly more than should happen if the game is trying to mimic the comics. That's thugs, the problem becomes so much worse when it's Hand Ninjas, as Ray points out.

Yes, doing the math says it takes DD 12 swings to get 10 hits...which if we ignore large chunks of the system...means it takes 12 swings to KO 5 thugs. It's that italicized bit that is skipped over that's causing the problem for the argument. Karma, tactics, stuns, slams, multiple attacks per round, etc. all ignored to point out a problem that doesn't actually exist.

The "reverse problem" as you put it, is not so so much worse. It's so statistically unlikely as to basically be impossible.

Thug has a Dex of 2 and Superman a Dex of 15. He needs a 28 on 2d10 to hit him. Of course, if he hits him, it won't hurt, as the Thug has a Str of 2 and Superman's Body is 18. To one-shot Superman, the Thug can't just hit him, he has to roll high enough so that he does 18 points of damage. To score RAPs of 18, the Thug needs 23 Column Shifts, which is a result of 105 on a roll of 2d10 with the "keep and add" system that DCH uses. Completely impossible? No.

So statistically improbable that it's simply not a consideration? Yeah.

It is certainly not "so, so much worse..."

I've played enough WEG Star Wars, DCH, and WFRP to see exploding dice do some wild things.

That it's even possible at all is so, so much worse. It's simply not possible, full stop, in MSH. Aunt May cannot KO the Hulk. No roll of the dice will ever let that happen. As it should be in a game that is meant to emulate the stories in comic books.

The math and mechanics in MSH does a very poor job recreating comics stories compared to the MEGS system. Doesn't mean people can't like it; my friends and I played the crap out of it when we were kids, and had a lot of laughs. As a comics emulator though...there are much better systems.

Depends on the stories you want to emulate from the comics. MSH does some better than DCH; DCH does some better than MSH. And yes, there are systems out there far better than both for emulating superhero stories.

 

[jian]

Not arguing with the numbers listed, but you can see how the team isn't all the same power level, right?

It's not just the rank, it's the versatility of the power that matters. This is what point-buy systems try so desperately to account for.

Warren has TY flight...which Jean can mimic with her EX telekinesis.

Hank has EX strength...which Jean can mimic at a distance with her EX telekinesis.

Bobby can hit for EX damage with his ice...which Jean can match with her EX telekinesis.

In DC Heroes, telekinesis costs 15 hero points to access plus 6 hero points per rank. Scott's energy blast costs 15 to access and 3 per rank...half as much as telekinesis. Flight is 10 to access and 2 per rank. Wildly, ice creation is 20 to access and 10 per rank...so Bobby is wildly more powerful in DCH than the rest of the team. Assuming rank 10 all around, Jean's telekinesis costs 75 points while Bobby's ice creation costs 120 points. Raising Jean's equivalent to psyche would not account for the 45 point difference.

It’s worth noting that assuming Jean and Bobby start with no power stunts, she can’t fly (and will have to spend a lot of Karma to get there) and Bobby can’t do ranged damage (ditto).

But yes, I’d argue that the O5 do have fairly similar power levels, more so than some starting hero groups such as the Avengers. How important is that? It’s probably more important for a Master and Students setup than some. I kind of assume Thor is a NPC.

 

[Eric V]

No, in Ray's scenario he assumes DD only uses his billy club. If you looked at the stats I posted and knew the basics of the game you'd see that.

Does DD no longer fight in hallways or in Hell's Kitchen in New York City? There's walls and buildings everywhere. It's about the safest assumption in this whole thing that there are walls nearby.

Right, whoever translated that 12 swings into 12 rounds ignored the multiple attack rules.

Yep, that's in my post.

Yes, doing the math says it takes DD 12 swings to get 10 hits...which if we ignore large chunks of the system...means it takes 12 swings to KO 5 thugs. It's that italicized bit that is skipped over that's causing the problem for the argument. Karma, tactics, stuns, slams, multiple attacks per round, etc. all ignored to point out a problem that doesn't actually exist.

I've played enough WEG Star Wars, DCH, and WFRP to see exploding dice do some wild things.

That it's even possible at all is so, so much worse. It's simply not possible, full stop, in MSH. Aunt May cannot KO the Hulk. No roll of the dice will ever let that happen. As it should be in a game that is meant to emulate the stories in comic books.

Depends on the stories you want to emulate from the comics. MSH does some better than DCH; DCH does some better than MSH. And yes, there are systems out there far better than both for emulating superhero stories.

Sigh...

1) You both assume the club. Which is fine. My point was that, in the comics, DD doesn't need the club to take out the thugs, pronto.

2) Sure, he fights in hallways and whatnot. It's just that he shouldn't need them to take out the thugs in comic fashion. In other words, DD takes out the thugs pronto, whether there's walls or a giant open space. He doesn't need the environment.

3) I mean, in this system, DD does miss at least 25% of the time, and doesn't even get the multiple attacks in a round 30% of the time...but sure, let's say Ray exaggerated and it's actually 8 rounds. Still way too much to be comic accurate.

4) We did the math above about slams...it doesn't skew things enough (and again, DD doesn't need walls to quickly take down thugs in the comics!). As for karma...please read the whole post, which states that DD shouldn't need to spend karma to take down 5 thugs, for the love of Stan Lee. The problem absolutely exists. It would be easy to run a sim to see.

5) You have NOT seen exploding dice get a result of 105 on 2d10, so please stop it. This insane statistical improbability is not a valid criticism of DCH. A thug taking out Superman in one shot in DCH is simply not something that happens in gameplay, so there's no affect on comic accuracy. Meanwhile, if DD faces 5 ninjas in MSH, he's in real trouble.

The game can be fun without it being able to emulate the comics. It's fine. But DCH is far ahead of it in that. That's also fine.

 

[overgeeked]

It’s worth noting that assuming Jean and Bobby start with no power stunts, she can’t fly (and will have to spend a lot of Karma to get there) and Bobby can’t do ranged damage (ditto).

Not according to the book. The baseline of ice generation is ranged damage. Advanced MSH, Player's Book, p80.

"Ice Generation: The hero in question may draw water from the ambient atmosphere (nearby area) and convert it to ice, which the hero may then use initially as a missile weapon. He may later develop other uses through Power Stunts. The ice missiles have Power rank range, inflict up to Power rank damage (the hero may throw less-lethal snowballs), and use Agility to hit either on the Blunt Throwing or Edged Throwing battle effect column. The hero may gain one additional Power Stunt at start, and develop others as play progresses."

You are right about flight and telekinesis though.

If we're worrying about power stunts, it's worth noting that in the first issue of X-Men alone Bobby pulls several. Creates an ice pole he swings around, freezes Beast's arm, creates an ice ramp that reflects a thrown attack back at Beast, creates an ice cube around himself as a shield, throws ice grenades that knock three missiles out of the sky, and creates an ice shield to protect the team from an explosion. Not sure about the karma cost on that, but it seems a bit more than he should have to spend according to the numbers. Each power stunt is 100 karma to even attempt. If he's rocking Ty (6) for his RIP, his karma is only 18.

But yes, I’d argue that the O5 do have fairly similar power levels, more so than some starting hero groups such as the Avengers. How important is that? It’s probably more important for a Master and Students setup than some. I kind of assume Thor is a NPC.

It's a tangent within a tangent within a tangent, honestly.

 

[jian]

Not according to the book. The baseline of ice generation is ranged damage. Advanced MSH, Player's Book, p80.

"Ice Generation: The hero in question may draw water from the ambient atmosphere (nearby area) and convert it to ice, which the hero may then use initially as a missile weapon. He may later develop other uses through Power Stunts. The ice missiles have Power rank range, inflict up to Power rank damage (the hero may throw less-lethal snowballs), and use Agility to hit either on the Blunt Throwing or Edged Throwing battle effect column. The hero may gain one additional Power Stunt at start, and develop others as play progresses."

You are right about flight and telekinesis though.

If we're worrying about power stunts, it's worth noting that in the first issue of X-Men alone Bobby pulls several. Creates an ice pole he swings around, freezes Beast's arm, creates an ice ramp that reflects a thrown attack back at Beast, creates an ice cube around himself as a shield, throws ice grenades that knock three missiles out of the sky, and creates an ice shield to protect the team from an explosion. Not sure about the karma cost on that, but it seems a bit more than he should have to spend according to the numbers.

It's a tangent within a tangent within a tangent, honestly.

Quite right, I stand corrected. Love imagining the sessions in that campaign.

“Imma knock those missiles out of the sky with my ice grenades.”

“Ice grenades? Since when can you do those? And since when do they work like anti-aircraft artillery?”

“Hey, I thought you said this campaign was going to be more light-hearted, in a Saturday morning cartoon kind of way.”

 

[overgeeked]

Quite right, I stand corrected. Love imagining the sessions in that campaign.

“Imma knock those missiles out of the sky with my ice grenades.”

“Ice grenades? Since when can you do those? And since when do they work like anti-aircraft artillery?”

“Hey, I thought you said this campaign was going to be more light-hearted, in a Saturday morning cartoon kind of way.”

Yeah. It's a great system and I love it dearly. But it's far from perfect. I think one of the first things I'd house rule if running it in modern times is flip the power stunt karma cost to a pay out. Reward creativity rather than punish it. To me things like power stunts, or the equivalent in other systems, is one of the beating hearts of superhero games. If you can't get creative with powers easily, that's a big problem for me.

 

[jian]

Yeah. It's a great system and I love it dearly. But it's far from perfect. I think one of the first things I'd house rule if running it in modern times is flip the power stunt karma cost to a pay out. Reward creativity rather than punish it. To me things like power stunts, or the equivalent in other systems, is one of the beating hearts of superhero games. If you can't get creative with powers easily, that's a big problem for me.

Yes, I generally am much more generous about allowing power stunts - usually you need to do one Red, one Yellow, and one Green in separate sessions and you’re done.

“Fine, whatever. Ice shield, ice grenades. Would you like something else while we’re on Saturday morning cartoons? Maybe an ice Optimus Prime? Ice Megazord?”

“Nah, best save something for later in the campaign.”

(40 years later)

“ICE MEGAZORD!!”

 

[overgeeked]

Yes, I generally am much more generous about allowing power stunts - usually you need to do one Red, one Yellow, and one Green in separate sessions and you’re done.

“Fine, whatever. Ice shield, ice grenades. Would you like something else while we’re on Saturday morning cartoons? Maybe an ice Optimus Prime? Ice Megazord?”

“Nah, best save something for later in the campaign.”

(40 years later)

“ICE MEGAZORD!!”

I think the last time I checked in with Iceman he was one of the most powerful mutants in the world because he could become ice, snow, or cold and teleport anywhere there was ice, snow, or cold and reform his body. Good to see him get such a glow up.

 

[aramis erak]

It’s a good breakdown. It does allow discussions of whether the X-men are Master and Students, Shared Threat, Stable Team (Team Stable?) or Found Family. They’ve been all of the above, and nowadays in the post-Krakoa era they’re also Giant Playbox (take whoever you like in a big handful and take them for a spin for a one-off campaign).

My current X-men campaign is basically Shared Threat, moving to Found Family.

Found family is a category I left out; it always seems to arise from the other kinds. In the case of the FF, Ben's found family well before the accident. The accident makes them into a different subgroup - common origin groups. Which often are families, anyway.

See also the Norse Gods in Marvel.