D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Crimson Longinus]

Perception does not equal reality. If you perceive it as racist, even though it's not, it doesn't become racist.

You denying blatant racism doesn't change the reality. At the point when the most prominent identifying characteristic of the only evil elf subrace is their black skin the racism is not imagined.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So if they don't represent real world people, there is no problem. Unless there is a different issue.

Even if the race is fictional with no 1:1 correlation between them and any RW people, using RW slurs and stereotypes to describe them is still problematic.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And literally all of that is cultural. There is literally a single sentence to Orcs being inherently drawn to acting 'savage' in all of 5E lore, and the rest is simply a statement of Orc culture (in Faerun, and to a lesser extent Oerth),

The book even states that an Orc, raised in a Good aligned society, will likely be Good aligned, however he will have to resist his urges towards savagery.

He gets angry easier than his human friends, and is more prone to 'seeing red' and lashing out. He can otherwise be a kind, merciful, altruistic and charitable being.

None of that is going to change. It's just going to be spelt out clearer going forwards so you dont have (for example) people constantly arguing 'it's OK to commit merciless genocide on Orcs because they're evil' which is an argument advanced on this very forum, a mere few weeks before WOTC's announcement.

How is "they will have to resist their urges towards savagery" representing that literally everything I listed was cultural?

All orc culture is always lesser. Less intelligent, less reasonable (all the supersitions), less literate...

In fact, do you know the worst thing. The literal worst thing I just realized that throws this in such stark relief.

Orcs can't build a wagon. They have to steal them.

Think about that for a second, what is a wagon? It is a box with wheels and an axle. We have had that technology since the time of Akad, Chariots were used in battle over five thousand years ago. And it isn't like many cultures in our world who had little need for them, due to other factors, Orcs want wagons, they have wagons, but they can't make them and must steal them from humans or dwarves. They also steal their homes, and their written script (if they even use it, see illiterate). The only thing they can make are crude armor and weapons... and they are often shown stealing those as well.

Centaurs?

And, while I certainly can appreciate the time and effort that went into your post, I don't see nearly any of the things you list as "problems" actually being problems. Why? Because they are horrible, surely, and although some might reflect a similar horrible nature in humans, that is the problem of humanity, not "orcdom", and shows how the two are distinct.

There are violent, tribal cultures in human history, seen as "evil" maybe in today's morale compass. Modeling a fantasy race after them might invoke negative feelings about one's past if they are associated with the culture, and I get that, but if you can step back instead and really understand that it is a game, this isn't real, and frankly if those evil cultures are in your game world, then you/your PC can act to try to change them there if you want.

I know whites did absolutely horrible things to American Indians (I think that is the correct term today, forgive me if I am wrong), but if a fantasy culture was based on what whites did historically, I would not see myself in them. I know, that is me and what about the people who do? Well, you only give power to things you choose to give power to. The choice is yours. It isn't easy, sure, but it is your choice.

Centaurs are a "wild" archetype. They don't build or craft, ect.

And "Orcdom" is too close to humanity. You can't just dismiss it as "not being real" and move on. These tropes are too close to the things people say about people today, especially as you dig deeper into them. And, I reject this defense of "well, it is your choice what you give power over you." The world doesn't work that way.

Got another 200 posts? It's going to take that many to answer that.

A while ago, I would have said it was a safe way to explore themes about humanity with things that are clearly not human. For example, exploring the theme of slavery and exploitation is touchy if not impossible in an RPG, unless you make it about two entities that are no longer human (say, mind-flayers and gith). However, the argument presented is even if you change the analogy, the fact that the theme still exists is problematic, and so it doesn't matter if its Plantation owners and slaves, Drow elves and quaggoths, mind-flayers and gith, or Hutts and Twi-leks; the fact that one group has such power over another group reflects the real world power-imbalance that still echo through modern society and affect people today.

The answer is to not have those themes exist as defining traits of anything; orcs, drow, mind-flayers, Hutts. However, when that's done the analogy these races represent are no longer valid, and they become humans in rubber suits; they can be everything and anything a human can while standing for nothing on its own. It stops mattering if the creature in the dungeon is an orc, human, drow, mind-flayer or whatever because they are equally capable of being good, bad, aggressive, pacifistic, or simply putting in a 9-to-5 as a human is.

What you make of that next is up to you.

This slavery angle has come up many times before, and the problem is still the same with your example as it is in every example.

The Evil Mind Flayers are also slavers? That isn't a problem.

Shall we discuss the merits and benefits of slavery as an economic system and show how it can be a good thing? That is a problem, that is a huge problem. Don't do that.


Racism is wrong, and rooted in misunderstandings between people? Okay, we can explore that.

Racism is factually correct and all those things are true? We have a big problem again. Why are you doing that?

I don't think we should expect every single person who takes offense to a fantasy concept that draws on real world stereotypes people might associate with their identity to rise above it. That seems to put the work on them rather than on each of us to be better going forward.

This exactly, thank you for saying what I've been trying to figure out how to phrase.

It should not be their responsibility to find a way to be okay with our depictions. We should work to be better and more understanding, not tell them that we don't need to change, they do.

 

[FrogReaver]

Even if the race is fictional with no 1:1 correlation between them and any RW people, using RW slurs and stereotypes to describe them is still problematic.

Not in my worldview.

 

[Charlaquin]

Then stop suggesting their position is bigoted?

I’m not

 

[FrogReaver]

I’m not

Then stop defending those that are?

 

[Charlaquin]

Then stop defending those that are?

Again, I’m not. I’m engaging with the content of the arguments, not focusing on the character of the people making them.

 

[FrogReaver]

Again, I’m not. I’m engaging with the content of the arguments, not the people making them.

IMO you can’t call an argument bigoted without calling the person making that argument bigoted.

 

[Sadras]

I don't expect you to agree with me, but I look at all the weak arguments offered to avoid having to change some fantasy lore, all the willful misunderstanding of the problem, all the blame put on the victims, all the disgusting paternalism and arrogance and....yeah, I'm not sure I believe that playing D&D doesn't make people more racist.

Let us analyse this beautiful reply.

Weak Arguments. Fair enough.
Willful misunderstanding. Attacking poster.
Disgusting paternalism. Attacking poster.
Arrogance. Attacking poster.

Finally, playing D&D makes people more racist. So the grognards are potentially more racist according to Elfcrusher. Classic.

 

[Charlaquin]

IMO you can’t call an argument bigoted without calling the person making that argument bigoted.

Which, as I said, is one of the sources of disconnect here.