D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

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Hussar

Legend
Ok, well, it has been pointed out that all orcs need in order to be fine, is strip out the racial purity, bloodlines stuff and maybe buff out a couple of other rough edges. It takes about 30 seconds and the excision of about twelve words.

So, I'm not really sure that it's any more difficult to fix them all.
 

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Dannyalcatraz

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So orcs would still be a usually evil and violent race of creatures, but they would just be described differently so that it doesn't mimic descriptions that have been used to demonize real world groups of people? I mean, that would be great, but I would be surprised if that were possible. It's just that I would be surprised that there are any words to describe that kind of fantasy race that real world racists have not used.

Fritz Lieber’s Nehwon Ghouls had translucent skin, so they looked very much like animate skeletons, I yoinked that for the orks in one of my homebrews, though each of the subspecies had different colored bones.

Were they still savage and barbaric? Of course! But there was almost no way to assign them any of the visual stereotypes associated with any of the RW peoples demonized and dismissed as being little more than upright animals.

I also used the small, bat-winged, 8-eyed Seshayans from Alternity: Star Drive as a replacement for Drow in another homebrew. Introduced as being deferential to others in the early campaign, it became revealed that they had once ruled the Underdark until being defeated in a massive war that scattered their people and reduced their cities to rubble AGES ago. Most Seshayans and surface-dwellers were unaware of that history, but then some Seshayans uncovered the truth...and hungered for a return to power...

Or as I posted in another thread, take your typical D&D high elf society and make them into xenophobic cannibals (like Athasian halflings).

Speaking of Athas, what about Thri-kreen? Too beefy? Tone them down a bit. Make them size small.

This isn’t rocket surgery. 🤪
Perhaps some examples of the "countless" descriptions that have been used? And I mean for a race of evil creatures that would make for a good guilt free opponent. Sure you can write about an admirable but misunderstood race, but that wouldn't fill the same role that orcs are expected to fill in default D&D.
Besides the aforementioned Nehwon Ghouls from Fritz Lieber?

The Omec from Defiance were a purple-skinned race that was so technologically superior to all the other alien species in the series that it took a multi-species alliance to defeat them. Why the animus? Because the Omec thought of “lesser” races as cattle and toys.

Stephen Donaldson's Amnion (The Gap novels) and Star Trek’s Borg come to mind. You probably know the latter; the former were similar, but used nano-level, gene-altering biotech for assimilation. Instead of looking like cyborgs, the Amnion resembled waxwork figures that had been too close to a heat source...sometimes with appendages in the wrong number or location.

Larry Niven’s Kzinti and Slavers? Different power levels; both fine for villainy.

The animal-men of H.G. Well’s Island of Doctor Moreau?

The amphibious Deep One/human hybrids from HPL’s lore? (And him, a notorious racist!)

Daleks and Cybermen from Dr. Who? Yes, even those can work in D&D: they weren’t evil, but for one homebrew, I reskinned Eberron’s Warforgedas being psionic dwarves animating metallic bodies. Effectively Cybermen. making them evil takes a few words in the description.

(I could go on. I’m choosing to stop.)

Yes, they’re all over the pace in terms of formidability, but that’s just a matter of mechanical tweaking. The key is none are likely to be described in terms associated with RW bigotry.
 

So the default MM orc will remain exactly what the 5e MM says, but other settings will change (Eberron, Wildemount) or omit (Dragonlance, Birthright) them as sees fit?

Of course. It totally depends on the setting. Dragonlance and Birthright dont even have Orcs. They have Draconians and Orogs respectively.

Did you have outrage when Eberron made Drow jungle people who worship scorpions with chitin armor instead of Lolth worshippers who live underground?

I honestly dont get the rage about this. Orcs (in Mystara, Greyhawk and Faerun) are usually evil because their Gods and society make them so. That's always been the case. Literally nothing is changing other than them spelling this out.

If you want a setting where Orc gods are benevolent, and their society encourages such acts of kindness and mercy, then you can have Orcs that are usually Good.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
Ok, well, it has been pointed out that all orcs need in order to be fine, is strip out the racial purity, bloodlines stuff and maybe buff out a couple of other rough edges. It takes about 30 seconds and the excision of about twelve words.

So, I'm not really sure that it's any more difficult to fix them all.
Okay. Honestly wasn't aware of any racial purity or bloodline verbage in the orc write up. Actually just read the entry in the Monster Manual again and still can't find it. But if that is all it takes, great!

I don't suppose you could list those words? I assume they would be right out of the Monster Manual, so shouldn't be a problem. Honest question since I really don't know which twelve words you mean.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
Fritz Lieber’s Nehwon Ghouls had translucent skin, so they looked very much like animate skeletons, I yoinked that for the orks in one of my homebrews, though each of the subspecies had different colored bones.

Were they still savage and barbaric? Of course! But there was almost no way to assign them any of the visual stereotypes associated with any of the RW peoples demonized and dismissed as being little more than upright animals.

I also used the small, bat-winged, 8-eyed Seshayans from Alternity: Star Drive as a replacement for Drow in another homebrew. Introduced as being deferential to others in the early campaign, it became revealed that they had once ruled the Underdark until being defeated in a massive war that scattered their people and reduced their cities to rubble AGES ago. Most Seshayans and surface-dwellers were unaware of that history, but then some Seshayans uncovered the truth...and hungered for a return to power...

Or as I posted in another thread, take your typical D&D high elf society and make them into xenophobic cannibals (like Athasian halflings).

Speaking of Athas, what about Thri-kreen? Too beefy? Tone them down a bit. Make them size small.

This isn’t rocket surgery. 🤪

Besides the aforementioned Nehwon Ghouls from Fritz Lieber?

The Omec from Defiance were a purple-skinned race that was so technologically superior to all the other alien species in the series that it took a multi-species alliance to defeat them. Why the animus? Because the Omec thought of “lesser” races as cattle and toys.

Stephen Donaldson's Amnion (The Gap novels) and Star Trek’s Borg come to mind. You probably know the latter; the former were similar, but used nano-level, gene-altering biotech for assimilation. Instead of looking like cyborgs, the Amnion resembled waxwork figures that had been too close to a heat source...sometimes with appendages in the wrong number or location.

Larry Niven’s Kzinti and Slavers? Different power levels; both fine for villainy.

The animal-men of H.G. Well’s Island of Doctor Moreau?

The amphibious Deep One/human hybrids from HPL’s lore? (And him, a notorious racist!)

Daleks and Cybermen from Dr. Who? Yes, even those can work in D&D: they weren’t evil, but for one homebrew, I reskinned Eberron’s Warforgedas being psionic dwarves animating metallic bodies. Effectively Cybermen. making them evil takes a few words in the description.

(I could go on. I’m choosing to stop.)

Yes, they’re all over the pace in terms of formidability, but that’s just a matter of mechanical tweaking. The key is none are likely to be described in terms associated with RW bigotry.
None of those describe orcs. Or even a sentient, but savage and evil races. At least of the ones that I am familiar with.

But if the only thing that needs to be done is to make them look less human, I guess that could be done. Not sure how that would work for half-orcs though.
 


Hussar

Legend
Okay. Honestly wasn't aware of any racial purity or bloodline verbage in the orc write up. Actually just read the entry in the Monster Manual again and still can't find it. But if that is all it takes, great!

I don't suppose you could list those words? I assume they would be right out of the Monster Manual, so shouldn't be a problem. Honest question since I really don't know which twelve words you mean.

So, you freely admit you don't actually know what the issue is. You cannot be bothered learning what the issue is. But, yet, you have an opinion about what should and should not be changed.

Do you not see why my blood pressure shoots out my freaking ears? You're the umpteenth person who this has been explained to. Yes, I know it's not your fault for coming to the conversation a bit late, but, y'know what? These issue have been around for decades. Break out your google fu, learn what the actual issue is, and then come back and join the conversation.

I'm tired of having to do people's research for them.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
None of those describe orcs. Or even a sentient, but savage and evil races. At least of the ones that I am familiar with.

But if the only thing that needs to be done is to make them look less human, I guess that could be done. Not sure how that would work for half-orcs though.
All are sentient, several are evil, and savagery is often just a matter of how one conducts war. Even if one has a robust culture, one can be called savage (just look at the real world).

And any COULD be Orcs if you so chose to make them. And the Nehwon Ghouls (in the stories) were enough like Orcs to be an effortless swap.

Bonus suggestion: Use Neanderthals.

As for half-orcs...I often don’t use them or most hybrids anymore. When a fantasy race is more than a two-dimensional assembly of stereotypes, I just let players use that race without needing hybrids. One exception are what we’re called Planetouched in 3.5Ed, and which I usually call Nephilim when I use them.
 
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