D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Warpiglet-7]

Do you understand that in common D&D portrayal it is the 'evil orcs' that are cast in the role of Native Americans and it is the 'good heroes' who are in the role of the white settlers. That is super disturbing. "Lets slaughter these primitive natives except this time it is completely justified because it says 'chaotic evil' in their stat block." That's just naughty word up, I'd side with the orcs.

uh, if a group of people worshipped a chaotic evil deity and then acted on pronouncements of said deity to rape murder and conquer—-actively intruding and murdering—-you would defend them?

that was rarely the situation with Native Americans and white settlers. this is a false comparison.

It was more often reversed.

 

[Remathilis]

One way to mitigate having fantasy races being limited to caricatured stereotypes of real people and cultures is to diversify people making the game behind the scenes to avoid causing harm to those very people.

As to anti-Semitism, I'm not going to get too far into this but most obviously from Tolkien,

• Tolkien also elaborated on Jewish influence on his Dwarves in a letter: "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue..."[T 3]

There are many other examples starting from this representation in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Dwarf (Middle-earth) - Wikipedia

• Tolkien was now influenced by his own selective reading of medieval texts regarding the Jewish people and their history.[6] The dwarves' characteristics of being dispossessed of their homeland (the Lonely Mountain, their ancestral home, is the goal the exiled Dwarves seek to reclaim), and living among other groups whilst retaining their own culture are all derived from the medieval image of Jews,[6][7] whilst their warlike nature stems from accounts in the Hebrew Bible.[6]
• The Dwarves' written language is represented on maps and in illustrations by Anglo-Saxon Runes. The Dwarf calendar invented for The Hobbit reflects the Jewish calendar in beginning in late autumn.[6] The dwarves taking Bilbo out of his complacent existence has been seen as an eloquent metaphor for the "impoverishment of Western society without Jews".[7]
• When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien continued many of the themes he had set up in The Hobbit. When giving Dwarves their own language (Khuzdul) Tolkien decided to create an analogue of a Semitic language influenced by Hebrew phonology. Like medieval Jewish groups, the Dwarves use their own language only amongst themselves, and adopted the languages of those they live amongst for the most part, for example taking public names from the cultures they lived within, whilst keeping their "true-names" and true language a secret.[11]
• In The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien uses the main dwarf character Gimli to finally reconcile the conflict between Elves and Dwarves through showing great courtesy to Galadriel and forming a deep friendship with Legolas, which has been seen as Tolkien's reply toward "Gentile anti-Semitism and Jewish exclusiveness".[7]

Thank you for info. I think it's safe to say dwarves have done a decent job of moving beyond a Jewish stereotype, they are mostly drunken Scotsmen and Vikings now! (Not that it is much better I guess, speaking as someone who can trace lineage to both of those cultures).

 

[Wishbone]

I had a longer post but It's impossible to have a discussion when people can't even explain what the fundamental issue is other than relying on the old "X is a problem because I say it is", "we've already proven it" and so on and so forth.

The argument in a nutshell from my perspective:

1. Assume that orcs represent a group of real world people
2. Discrimination against those people based on how they look or act is wrong (I don't think anyone here contests this)
3. Conclusion? Saying bad things about orcs is saying bad things about real world people. See #2
4. Question whether orcs represent real world people? See #1

So it never ends. People always bring up Tolkien, previous editions or just make assertions as fact.

Have a good one.

In case this is relevant to my posts, since you mentioned Tolkien and I shared examples from him just now since dwarves in D&D are built primarily on his model, I'm presenting my opinion and not claiming its fact that dwarves are meant to be literally Jewish. I don't expect them to have literal dwarf rabbis or anything, but that a reasonable person can draw the conclusion that they call on certain negative stereotypes of Jewish people in popular imagination as a shorthand that perpetuates negative stereotypes in the real world.

Part of why I shared that D&D Beyond video is several Black TTRPG creators say they view orcs as rooted in racist concepts, and I think agreeing that discrimination is wrong as a baseline leads to the conclusion that we have to reconsider the representation of fantasy races. That way we can avoid piling on to racism in the real world and ensure our fantasy roleplaying games can actually be escapist for more people in the hobby who think when we talk about orcs we are actually talking about people like them.

 

[Guest 6801328]

uh, if a group of people worshipped a chaotic evil deity and then acted on pronouncements of said deity to rape murder and conquer—-actively intruding and murdering—-you would defend them?

You mean...like Europeans?

 

[Sadras]

To me this shows how effective the language and imagery around orcs have been. Orcs are the archetype of the bestial savage that is going to invade our country and rape our women. The bogeyman that has been invoked for centuries...millennia?...by those who want to vilify another people for political or economic ends.

How dare we villify orcs, we* never do this in real life about certain groups of people who may share a different ideology (political or otherwise) to us.

* everyone

 

[Maxperson]

Yes. As I and others have suggested many times, a specific and unique mechanic that represented "strong" or "nimble" or whatever would be a much better way of conveying a race's advantages, than would a boringly simplistic + to a starting ability score, an advantage that would eventually get blurred or erased by ASIs anyway.

The tricky part...tricky, not impossible...is to make it an advantage that has minimal symmetry with certain classes, or with the stat itself.

So, for example, giving a "strong" race increased carrying capacity (regardless of whether that's useful or just a ribbon) is useful for any class.

For "nimble", how about a straight +1 bonus to Initiative rolls?

For "smart", something involving Perception (which is the super-skill, after all)

Etc.

It's okay to have races that work better for some classes than others. It gives more meaning to the choice.

 

[Haffrung]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been asked.

What is the purpose of having different playable races in a fantasy RPG?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

How dare we villify orcs, we* never do this in real life about certain groups of people who may share a different ideology (political or otherwise) to us.

* everyone

You messed up your quote, I didn't say that.

 

[Remathilis]

Oh, well, gosh, I suppose those exceptions completely invalidate the premise. I guess there's no racism underlying the tropes in D&D after all.

WTF??!?!?!?!

You asked for examples. I'm surprised you aren't all over Valenar elves, to be honest. Invaders from a foreign land, horseback riders on some of the best-bred horses on Khorvaire, eager to prove themselves in battle at all opportunity, ancestor-worshippers, frequently attacking neighboring lands, masters of the scimitar and shortbow, and well, look at them.

Guess Eberron isn't as forward thinking on elves as they are on orcs...

 

[Crimson Longinus]

uh, if a group of people worshipped a chaotic evil deity and then acted on pronouncements of said deity to rape murder and conquer—-actively intruding and murdering—-you would defend them?

that was rarely the situation with Native Americans and white settlers. this is a false comparison.

It was more often reversed.

Right, The point is that the horrible wrong stereotypes about the natives is true in this fantasy setting. This doesn't make it okay, not even remotely.