D&D 5E (+)What Ubiquitous DnD Tropes Get It Totally Wrong?

[FrozenNorth]

Meh. I don't think being humanoid makes orcs human. If xenomorphs (I was thinking Sci-Fi) aren't a good example what about werewolves (when shifted)? Vampires? Ghouls? Harpies? Red Dragons? Beholders? Demons?

Not to derail the thread even more, but to me, the line is in the second part of Aldarc’s comment “when the bioforms have the veneer of a historical human culture”.

Orcs by themselves aren’t bad, even if they are always evil, but always evil orcs that are using the trappings of a Mongol horde, and use Mongol names, starts to get somewhat uncomfortable.

 

[Charlaquin]

Hey guys, as much as I’d be up for continuing this discussion of the implications of race in fantasy settings, we’ve been asked by the mods to stop.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Meh. I don't think being humanoid makes orcs human. If xenomorphs (I was thinking Sci-Fi) aren't a good example what about werewolves (when shifted)? Vampires? Ghouls? Harpies? Red Dragons? Beholders? Demons?

There is a rather stark and simple difference between humanoids and ghouls beholders and demons. Those creatures are manifestations of a type of evil. They have no soul, they aren’t born but are either created Individually or manifest in the world magically, and they are not generally considered capable of modifying their behavior.

Barring a homwbrew world that changes this, orcs are born, have souls, and have some control over their behavior. They aren’t manifestations of a type of evil.

Dragons don’t make sense.

 

[Oofta]

There is a rather stark and simple difference between humanoids and ghouls beholders and demons. Those creatures are manifestations of a type of evil. They have no soul, they aren’t born but are either created Individually or manifest in the world magically, and they are not generally considered capable of modifying their behavior.

Barring a homwbrew world that changes this, orcs are born, have souls, and have some control over their behavior. They aren’t manifestations of a type of evil.

Dragons don’t make sense.

I'll just say that if your in-world justification is that orcs have souls and dragons do not it's fine.

According to the MM, orcs are a created race

Such was the role of the orcs, he [Gruumsh] proclaimed, to take and destroy all that the other races would deny them. To this day, the orcs wage an endless war on humans, elves, dwarves, and other folk.​

I think all living, sentient creatures should either qualify or not. There's nothing that says orcs have souls but dragons do not.

This isn't about race per se but different species. In the case of orcs and elves at least sub-species of humans.

I'm also not saying my way is the only way. I just think you take something away if you say that orcs are just ugly humans. To each their own.

 

[Charlaquin]

Part of it is that we've been conditioned over time to think that arrows and crossbow bolts don't always kill but bullets are insta-kill on any hit (particularly when the good guys shoot 'em), even though in reality they're probably much the same.

But yes, small arms could be more or less treated like wands.

The problem with gunpowder extends beyond just small arms, however.

For me the issues are twofold: once large arms and bombs become commonplace castles become almost pointless; and once you have functional gunpowder and thus concussive explosions it's a pretty small step to developing engines that run on (a variant of) these, which immediately moves your setting into pre-Industrial or even Industrial.

Again, though, magic can achieve concussive explosions, so I don’t see why this is a problem for gunpowder and not for wizards. If it’s just a difference of commonality, just make gunpowder similarly rare.

Fine if you want a steampunk setting, not so fine if you want Renaissance or earlier.

They... had gunpowder in the Renaissance period though. It’d be anachronistic to have a setting with Renaissance-level tech and not have firearms. Maybe it’s a small step from there to combustion engines, but it’s still a step that you can say hasn’t been taken in your setting.

 

[Charlaquin]

According to the MM, orcs are a created race

Such was the role of the orcs, he [Gruumsh] proclaimed, to take and destroy all that the other races would deny them. To this day, the orcs wage an endless war on humans, elves, dwarves, and other folk.​

Pretty sure all the D&D races were created...

 

[generic]

Pretty sure all the D&D races were created...

Not in muh setting!

 

[Charlaquin]

Not in muh setting!

Mine either, but at that point the “according to the monster manual” argument is no longer applicable.

 

[generic]

Mine either, but at that point the “according to the monster manual” argument is no longer applicable.

I find that argument, in general, very weak, as many DMs create a varied system of settings, and there is no real "official" setting or canon in D&D.

 

[Oofta]

Pretty sure all the D&D races were created...

Well, everything in D&D was created started with these guys Arneson and Gygax.

But I don't see a reason to believe that humanoids are somehow different from other monsters. If you want gnolls to have free will and their culture of their own and the idea that they were created by a demon is just myth ... well that's fine. I even had fun playing a gnoll barbarian in LFR.

But in my campaign world? Maybe it's just because I'm a bit old school about some aspects of game structure, maybe it's because I want some bad guys that the PCs can just slaughter without remorse.

There will be plenty of times when there are gray areas and difficult choices, but I want those times to stand out. If it's always a moral dilemma of whether to kill your enemies then it doesn't stand out when I set up a situation where I want a moral dilemma. Well, that and a lot of times I just don't want to have to worry about it. Trolls are evil, kill them with fire.