D&D 5E What Would You Put In a 5E Red Box?

[Jester David]

Again, you are missing the point here. These were separate games with different rulesets and separate lines.

We are talking about multiple formats of the same game.

IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE!

If something is costing you sales of a product, it doesn't matter if it's a separate line or a different presentation of the core rules.

This is one of the reasons D&D Essentials was such a mistake. Having four books with the same rules (Players Handbook, Heroes of Fallen Lands, Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms, and the Rules Compendium) divided sales. While there was likely some overlap, not everyone bought everything and many people probably bought just one.
Which would be even worse if this was the strategy from launch, as people would pick one from the start.

Having two variants on the rules might mean more total sales. And it might mean more total players. But it means less money for the company. Odd but true.

Some mostly made-up math to demonstrate. I'm making up the numbers, lacking the actual figures from WotC, but this is more proof of concept.
Let's say it costs $5000 to make a book. Plus printing. This pays for the art and writing and editing and development. It's likely quite a bit more. So for every copy that gets sold, half the profit pays for printing and half pays the production costs. Let's say WotC makes $10 per copy of a $50 book. Which is probably pretty close being around 20%. Which means WotC needs to sell 500 copies to make any profit. And if they sell 1000 copies they've made $500.
If they release two books that compete for an audience and each sells 1000 copies (2000 total sales) then WotC has made a cool $1000. However, if they instead doubled down and only released the one book, and it sold 1500 copies they've lost out on 500 sales! The 25% of the audience might people people who were not buying both or people who were only interested in the other presentation. However, despite losing 500 sales, WotC made the same amount of money.

Now, keep in mind, the production cost is quite likely in the tens of thousands, so the "break even" point is many hundreds of sales.

 

[TrippyHippy]

IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE!

If something is costing you sales of a product, it doesn't matter if it's a separate line or a different presentation of the core rules.

This is one of the reasons D&D Essentials was such a mistake. Having four books with the same rules (Players Handbook, Heroes of Fallen Lands, Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms, and the Rules Compendium) divided sales. While there was likely some overlap, not everyone bought everything and many people probably bought just one.
Which would be even worse if this was the strategy from launch, as people would pick one from the start.

It makes a big difference in terms of providing data that doesn't validly support your argument, but anyway.

The D&D Essentials line was terrible, and has little to do with what I am arguing for here. The model I am arguing for is a complete core product in multiple formats, with expansion books built thereof.

The Essentials Box didn't even have a character generation system. It just had a lot of empty space in a box with crappy minimalist materials, and yet curiously still didn't have the right dimensions to store the handbook series (that contained all the actual rules) in it! It operated under a separate set of rules to the 4e line. That is where the market division came in. Don't take this as a good model.

Also, the profit margin doesn't all have to fall on the core rules. It can made up in supplements, and indeed the major profit of the D&D brand is more likely to be made outside of the RPG line. The quality of the product, and satisfaction of the users is more important.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes.

So both versions of the game under TSR, both versions of the game under WOTC, and the one version of the game under Paizo, all had boxed sets. And every one of those companies came to the conclusion it was a smart business decision. Even the one you're quoting.

Yeah, I'd say they know what they're doing. Boxed sets work, and that's what the bulk of the evidence points to. I'm pro boxed set.

 

[Warbringer]

Boxed sets work, and that's what the bulk of the evidence points to. I'm pro boxed set.

I'm pro boxed set as well (as a mass market intro), but my understanding (from Mearls&Co) is that a boxed set is a 12month cycle with art,set and print?

Of course, with Mari Kolkowsky leaving beginning December, maybe this is already on route to the printers (core rules)

 

[Dausuul]

The core rules are the big seller for D&D, so you wouldn't want to split those sales if you could avoid it. However, the goal of a red box as I see it is to draw in newbies, people who wouldn't be interested in a game that requires you to buy a big hardcover textbook and do a few hours of homework before you can play. It should complement PHB sales, not cannibalize them.

What I would like to see in a red box is "instant D&D," designed around providing everything you need to set up a short D&D adventure in a matter of minutes. It would be a bit like those D&D board games they did for 4E, except this would be using the actual 5E rules with a proper DM, instead of a stylized DM-less version. Four pregen characters (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) and the core ruleset with no frills whatsoever--all the options are switched off, all the modular extras left out. Include dice, a short bestiary, and a set of encounter cards with combat, social, and exploration scenarios. Also have a set of interlocking dungeon tiles that can be used to construct multiple dungeons, and togs for the monsters and PCs. And finally, have a book of maybe 20 one-shot adventures that assemble these elements in different ways.

The idea would be that if you want a quick D&D game that takes 1-2 hours to play and doesn't require advance prep, the red box has you covered. For people who've never played D&D before, it would be a way to ease into the game. For experienced players, it would be a way to play a quick D&D game when you don't have time for a full gaming session, as well as a handy resource for a DM needing to whip up a dungeon on the fly. Since it would be using the actual D&D rules, you could bring your own character instead of using the pregens, and DMs could customize the prefab adventures to suit their needs.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm pro boxed set as well (as a mass market intro), but my understanding (from Mearls&Co) is that a boxed set is a 12month cycle with art,set and print?

Not really. That was a misread of something he wrote once. He said it was 9 months, and I think 6 of that was print. And given it seems like they finished the core 4 races 4 classes feat-less skill-less version of the game quite some time ago (they announced the core game was done a couple months ago), I think that's in line with the order time to order up a boxed set.

Of course, with Mari Kolkowsky leaving beginning December, maybe this is already on route to the printers (core rules)

I suspect the boxed set was.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Yes. Which they created because they hadn't written their rulebook for brand new people, and it was a scary imposing brick that terrifies even the initiated.
If planning the Core Rulebook with both new and old players in mind, that mistake could be avoided.

Paizo also did everything possible to keep the costs on the Beginner Box low. They used recycled art. They used salaried employees rather than freelancers, so they wouldn't have to pay anyone more. And they took a smaller than normal percentage of the profits.
And they've avoided doing a second box. There's no BB2 and they've excluded the product from the PRD, not allowing 3PP to make follow up products. Because they do NOT want to create a second line of Pathfinder and want people to continue onto the Core Rulebook.

There is also a bit of fan demand for more basic box material. Turns out quite a few people enjoyed the streamlined system without so much crunch and would like to play with such a PF ruleset at higher levels. I imagine it is very frustrating as a new player to find a game you really like only to find out that in order to progress past level 5 you have to buy a set of bullet-stopping bricks and read them.

It is also something to note that Pathfinder Core isn't actually a complete game either. It still needs a Monster Manual and doesn't include any adventures. The Boxset, despite having less Classes and Races to choose from is actually more complete in being a playable game 'out of the box' and actually teaches new gamers how to play much better too.

Anyway, what is wrong with having recycled art and whatnot? Heck, I wouldn't care if the contents of the core rule Hardback and Box set were identical. If it increases the fan base, then great! The profits can be made elsewhere, beyond the entree point. Look at Mongoose's Legend books - their pdfs cost $1 each, because they just want to get people into the game with as few barriers as possible.

Being a complete playable and re-playable game in the box is an important attribute.

The box must include the means to create characters, for the DM to create adventures, and some helpful advice for doing so.

The class selection doesn't have to include everything and the level scope can be limited. The important thing is that within that limited scope, there is enough material to create and play many adventures. A boxed set that is only usable once before needing additional product is a slap in the face. All that does is tell a new player " thanks for dropping $$ on our ad copy, now go buy something you can actually use."

An important part of why the Moldvay and Mentzer basic boxes were so great was that they weren't just ad copy for a game. They were an important first core product to a complete game and never stopped being useful throughout the life of that game. When the expert boxes were released, they worked alongside the basic boxes but did not supercede them. The intro boxes had lasting value.

AD&D was available for those that wanted more options and rules complexity. The beauty of it all was that the systems were so compatible, adventure modules could be shared between them with conversion on the fly easily possible. We had AD&D parties explore the Caves of Chaos and the Isle of Dread. The Village of Hommlet was easy to use with a Basic D&D party. The internet is full of stories about folks using products between the systems often because they weren't even aware that there were two product lines.

I see core 5E and modular 5E being able to work much like D&D/ AD&D ( if the designers got it right)and thus the basic box being able to sustain core only play indefinitely.

 

[steeldragons]

What does one need to begin to play this game?
1) The Players need to know how to play. This includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the elements of character creation (attributes/classes/races), combat and exploration (and conceivably interaction) rules, basic armor, weaponry and equipment...if skills and/or feats are to be considered part of the "Core" 5e game, then these need to be presented here also.

2) The DM needs material on how to run a game. This includes, but is not necessarily limited to, how to adjudicate play, combat/exploration/interaction rules relevant to the DM (which make include but definitely has more than the rules the players have access to), and how to create an adventure (including use of traps, illusions & magics not available to the players, and monsters).

3) A set of dice.

Character sheets are nice, but harldy necessary. A couple of blank ones (or pre-gen'd characters?) included as "bonus material" is nice if there's room/money to do so.

A beginning adventure, as much a I would say it would be a huge bonus, a whole separate booklet for them isn't necessarily "necessary." At the very least, an example adventure of only a few pages in the the DMs booklet is a good thing. Otherwise, a separate 16 pager, leaves room for 3 or 4 mini adventures and/or example situations/scenarios for the players, 3 or 4 pages each.

The "core red box" should cover up to level 5. Covering more than that only adds complexity and material that adds on the poundage to page count that is prohibitive. Even going to level 5 adds in the 3rd level spells and a slew of higher HD monsters.

SO...looking at all of that...the "Red Box" needs:
1 "Player's Handbook" [since WotC has that trademarked, starter/mini/48 page]...no more than 5 or 6 classes, no more than 5 or 6 races, covering up to level 5.
1 "Dungeon Master's Guide" [since WotC has that trademarked, starter/mini/48 or 64 page]
1 "Monster Manual" [since WotC has that trademarked, starter/mini/48 or 64 page] with creatures HD >1 through, let's say, 8 with a few (like weaker dragons or giants) up to 10.
1 "Primer Spellbook" [48 or 64 pages with all magic spells and effects -depending on the classes presented, but at least clerics and mages- from levels 1-3 and a few level 4 or higher spells/rituals/effects for DM use]
1 set of dice.
optionally: 1 "Adventure Log" 16 pages of mini-adventures whether that's 3 4-page ones or 2 6-page ones or even just a single 12-page starter.
optionally: 1 "Character's Folio" 16 pages, 8 pages of pregen's, 4 blank pages (fighter/mage/cleric/rogue) or however many "core/base" classes there are.

1 box...for D&D I would suppose the design must be dominated by the color red...preferably with NEW [evocative] art on the cover...perhaps something involving a dragon...in some place akin to a dungeon...I dunno. They have the big high-paid creative professionals, I'm sure they'll figure something out.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I think a Basic D&D Boxed set should contain;

1 player booklet containing core races, classes and character creation rules

1 DM booklet containing core rules and code to download PDF version

1 flyer marketing D&D products

1 adventure

1 set of polyhedral dice

5 character sheets

1 pencil

1 generic world map

 

[Li Shenron]

If I were in charge of designing a "Red Box", I'd choose these as the guiding principles:

0- the purpose should be to attract new players to the world of D&D (not to attract to 5e people who already play other editions or RPG, i.e. not an "edition preview")

All the following are consequences of "principle 0":

1- it has to be sold in general toy stores and on toy shelves of supermarkets: people should not look for a Red Box, they should just find it, IOW it's the Red Box that should be looking out for potential buyers

2- it has to be cheap, e.g. in the 20-30e range, because the potential new player shouldn't think too much about buying it or not... 50e is too much, most people wouldn't spend 50e on a game unless they are already gamers (including boardgames fans) or they already know they'll like it. 20-30e is cheap enough for a compulsion purchase. Content needs to be limited in quality and quantity to reach this goal.

3- it has to be marketed as family game with an educational content, because unfortunately a RPG isn't really playable by less than 3-4 people, and a lot of potential customers have more kids than friends to play with. Do not underestimate the power of the word "educational" these days: advertise the opportunities for problem-solving, strategic thinking, creativity and storytelling on the cover of the box.

These, and a nice cover art, would be the ideas for selling the Red Box. There is no content defined yet, because it won't make much difference for selling (to new players). It will make a lot of difference of course for actually liking the game and get hooked! So here's what I think...

4- it has to be a smooth introduction into the complete experience of playing D&D. This means it has to be easy to understand at the first read, quick to start playing, and come with props that facilitate playing at a reasonable speed, which includes limiting the stuff that players and DMs have to keep in mind.

So here could be one possible content:

(all booklets should be softcovers and only with spare art to cut the costs, just like in the old BD&D boxed sets)
- rules of the game: 1 booklet containing the minimum core rules for checks, combat and adventuring, ideally ~20 pages. It can be done for example by taking the playtest "How to Play" and trim the fat any way you can: not listing all possible combat actions, remove descriptions of damage types and spell templates, and rewrite the text to be straight to the point (casual players are inexperienced but not morons... very often the text in the playtest rules is incredibly verbose as if the designers think readers have serious understanding problems and need 20 lines to explain something that should be clear in 1). Stuff like Exploration module, Interaction module, feats and multiclassing don't necessarily need to be in the Red Box.
- character creation: 1 booklet of ~20 pages with classes, races and backgrounds. Limit the amount of each to the most iconic (e.g. 4 classes, 4 races, 6-8 backgrounds). Limit the maximum level of character material (especially to keep the number of spells down), but not less than level 10.
- DM's manual: 1 booklet of ~20 pages with guidelines about how to run the game and create adventures (normally to be read only once), a short example of play and a good chunk of monsters with slim descriptions e.g. 4 monsters/page x 10 pages = 40 monsters.
- one set of dice
- one folded laminated (i.e. eraseable) cardboard with one side blank and another with squares, for drawing maps
- one page of light cardboard counters for characters and monsters
- a few character sheets
- one sample adventure (~10 pages) for 1st level characters, that would take them up a few levels; then provide monthly free short adventures online, in an easy-to-print format (just like they did in 3e)