Whatever happened to the gods, anyways?

[Ozymandias79]

I favor 4 domains so we don't have to include the fringe (and lesser) demigoddess Hecate

Joven: Arcane, Storm, Tyranny, Destruction
AKA: Sky father, the high lord, god of magic, king of the gods
Reasoning: if anyone should have magic it should the king of the gods as I think that domain holds more power than the others
Favored weapon: "Thunderbolt" Quarterstaff
Portfolio: Weather, the skies, minotaurs, mountains, swans, pride, hurricane, tornados, power, eagles, bulls, oaks, wizards

Juna: Justice, Protection, Tyranny, Poison
AKA: Queen of the gods,
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “The scales of justice” Flail
Portfolio: peacock, scales, goliaths, marriage, laws, rules, home, women, guards, order, balance, coins

Lauto: Earth, Fate, Death, Civilization
AKA: the keeper
Reasoning: I like him to be a god of ceremonies and also he needs something that counteracts that darkness about him
Favored weapon: “fatality” greatsword
Portfolio: the dead, death, warforged, banks, mining, minerals, dogs, domestical animals, loans, hoards, marriage, burials, history

Netari: Destruction, Sea, Wilderness, Luck
AKA: the deep one, blessed blue
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “wavecaller” trident
Portfolio: Dragonborns, seas, horses, earthquakes, ships, exploring, sailors, traveling by sea, tsunamis,

Apoli: Hope, Poison, Sun, Fate
AKA: the eversplendid one, first dragon slayer
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “Solaris” longsword
Portfolio: the sun, devas, the arts, diseases, devas, music, days, crows, vanity, oracles, prophecies, swordmages, paladins, dawn

Peresefa:, Life, Winter, Death, Undeath
AKA: reaper queen, raven queen, everwalking one, iron queen, the maiden and the crone,
Reasoning: I would like her to a Psychopomp (walking down to her husband with the souls she has collected from the dead during the summer as a price for fertility), I would like to think that she is in favor of the undead and it would be a minor conflict with her husband, just like juna is the protector and joven the detroyer
Favored weapon: “Soul harvester” scythe
Portfolio: Life, Death, Seasons, growth, decay, ravens, harvest, undead, shadar-kai, revenants, warlocks
Other: it is generally believed that her name is not safe to speak aloud, one calls her Cor'eya instead because if you say her name aloud it is believed that she will hear you and come for you and take your life, her clergy calls her for naestiz


Vulkar: Creation, Earth, Skill, Torment
AKA: the great maker,
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “mastermaker”
Portfolio: Dwarfs, smiths, volcanoes, weapons, crafts, torture, insects, artificier,

Maros: Strength, Strife, War, Madness
AKA: the hound of war,
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “bloodlust”battleaxe
Portfolio: war, weapons, warforged, orcs, halforcs, hate, warlords, fighters, barbarians,

Merkari: Change, Luck, Trickery, Strife
AKA: the speedster, trickster god,
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “Caduceus” staff
Portfolio: Halflings, thiefs, commerce, spies, games, jokes, medicines,vermin, rosters, turtles, rogues, heralds

Mireva: Civilization, Knowledge, Skill, War
AKA:
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “battlecaller” scimitar
Portfolio: strategy, libraries, eladrins, war, mercy, owls, victory, knowledge, warlords, paladins

Dayna: Darkness, Moon, Wilderness, Vengeance
AKA: the wild one, the untouched one, lady of dreams, lady of all night
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “Doomfinder” longbow
Portfolio: elfs, assassins, gnolls, woods, vengeance, virgins, moon, wolves, longtooth shifters, nightmares, dreams, dusks, nights

Vena: Freedom, Love, Madness, Life
AKA: the seducer, lady of cats
Reasoning:
Favored weapon: “Heavyheart” mace(unsure about this one)
Portfolio: love, lust, peace, adultery, cats, razorclaw shifters, chaos


comments?

 

[Tomalak]

You've got Persephone in there, and I don't understand why. She's less a goddess and more a tale, in my experience. From the classic twelve, you got her replacing Dionysus/Baccus, who himself bumped Hestia out of the pantheon (But she'd kind of overlap with Hera/Juno, so better to stick with Bacchus, IMO).

Also, Hades as god of the earth and not one of the main gods worshipped by the greeks. Demeter is the one missing to get him in there, and I'd like to use Demeter as the goddess of seasons, as it makes more sense to me than persephone.

Also, why stick to domains whose feats don't allow overlap of at-will powers? That's not the way the DP deities, or their successors in Dragon Magazine worked, so it's not a matter of intent in design. And the comparable non-Divine feats (gladiator styles, white lotus school) don't follow such a rule (White Lotus feats ALL work on all at-wills) so I don't think it's a balance issue. Personally, I think it allows some variety (i.e. some characters will want to enhance all their at wills with something, while other characters will take two feats that enhance the same at-will).

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

a. One at-will can't benefit from two domain feats at the same time. Each successive domain feat that benefits the same at-will is less useful than the first one you take. I didn't want to mechanically weaken any of the gods. Too bad. You could boost the hell out of Hand of Radiance with Winter and Undeath otherwise. 1d4+4+wis cold and necrotic damage, three targets. Add Moon for a Reflex debuff too. WotC caught that one.

b. Remember that whole "fewer options for Divine characters" you were worried about a few posts back? If all of Merkari's domains boost Sacred Flame, then how does that not limit Merkari's clerics?

c. As it turned out, the above reasons didn't matter one little bit. Vena was the only god who had multiple domains benefiting the same at-will. And even with her it was only with adding Life as a third domain. If there was a strong third match for her, I would have taken it regardless of the mechanics.

As for why certain gods made the cut and others didn't, I think you're going to have to talk to Ata about that. As I understand it, he pretty much wrote L4W's religion. I was surprised that Dionysus didn't make the Twelve, but he is one of the old gods, so he wasn't completely forgotten. And Peresefa is L4W's origin story of the Shadar-Kai (they were a wedding present), so she's too important to drop now.

*Sighs* This, by the way, is why I didn't want an official list. It's a whole bunch of opinions. My response to Ozy's list is basically going to come down to "not bad, but I like mine better," which isn't super-helpful. But here I go anyway:

I wouldn't mind giving everyone four domains, except it breaks the Rule of Three, and then Vena has two weak domains rather than just one. Neither of these are particularly serious complaints though.

Joven: I'd switch out Arcane for a domain associated with a more beneficial side of law, like Justice or Civilization. I don't see particularly magical about him.

Juna: Why Poison?

Lauto: Right on. I like Civilization as ritual. I'm sure someone's going to come begging to change his weapon to a scythe, but it's not going to be me.

Netari: Is Luck there because sailors pray that he won't sink them? If so, wouldn't Protection work too? I'm not convinced.

Apoli: I think he needs some art-related domain. Which is too bad, because the four you gave him are nice.

Peresefa: Alright, if one of the Twelve has to take Undeath, it would be her, for the reason you gave. I'd prefer Hope or Torment over Death, because Lauto seems be keeping a tight grip on what's his. It seems strange that's she's the reaver, as that doesn't seem to fit the Greek or L4W mythology. Also, what's a "naestiz"? Google totally failed me.

Vulkar through Merkari: I can hardly argue with these, although maybe Merkari could take Arcane or Darkness instead of Strife. Just a thought.

Dayna: Really? You don't think Freedom works for her? I'd drop Vengeance for it. Well, actually I'd drop Darkness if there was anyone around to pick it up. Maybe it could go to Merkari.

Vena: Blech to Life and Freedom. But those are probably the best matches beyond Love and Madness (although Strife might work). I just can't get excited over them.

Finally, Hekates is not a demigod. She just doesn't belong to the Twelve. Source.

 

[Tomalak]

Source mentioned above was (somehow) a page I had not seen. It makes some things clear, but begs the question: Can the 'Old Gods' be worshipped by players, and do they grant domains?

Also, I think one of the simplest ways to alleviate the confusion of 'i think my way is better' is to allow multiple configurations, each allotted to a different culture (i.e. Hadeys and Lauto having some difference in their domains).

 

[Theroc]

This may be a very silly question, but I blame my ignorance of Domains to my lack of Dragon Magazine or Divine Power.

What are Domains in 4th Edition, and why must we increase structure of the Pantheon to suit them? Couldn't players simply have a small IC writeup/justification of their choice based on character background or the like? Or will certain Domains conflict and/or overpower a character?

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

I don't see why anyone couldn't worship an old god, since there are already more L4W characters who worship Hekates than ones who worship Joven. As to whether it's appropriate for them to be granting domains, well, that's a matter of opinion. Clearly, I think they can do so.

This may be a very silly question, but I blame my ignorance of Domains to my lack of Dragon Magazine or Divine Power.

What are Domains in 4th Edition, and why must we increase structure of the Pantheon to suit them? Couldn't players simply have a small IC writeup/justification of their choice based on character background or the like? Or will certain Domains conflict and/or overpower a character?

Domains were introduced in Divine Power. Mechanically, each domain has two associated feats. One feat gives a skill boost and upgrades an at-will for each divine class. The other feat gives a Channel Divinity power. Since an at-will can't benefit from multiple domain feats at the same time, I don't really see how cherry picking would overpower a character. I wish I knew the answer to your second question.

Seriously, it's not like all the Channel Divinities are locked to certain gods. What is the problem that would arise if we just let people choose domains for themselves?

 

[stonegod]

Apropos of nothing, every time I see this thread's title pop-up, I want to say....

... I ate them.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

[renau1g]

I'm with you SG.

 

[Rapida]

I think the best solution would just allow each player to choose the domains themselves. Like Tomalak said in the third post we just need to officially approve such measures.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

I think that's how things stand right now. The FRPG introduced new Channel Divinity feats. These feats were never assigned to a god, but they're still available to players. I assumed domains were the same.