D&D 5E Whatever "lore" is, it isn't "rules."

[Maxperson]

So now you're making up your own GH lore in an attempt to show that my GH campaign contradicted canon?

No. I'm stating what astrology means. It's predictive "science" based on stars and moons and such.

From the big book in the boxed set, p 4:

The heavesn are far more important and interesting. We must study the stars, those which wander and those which are fixed, to properly understand Astrology. . . .

When both Mistress [Luna] and Handmaiden [Celene] are full, things of great portent are likely to occur, depending upon the positions of the five wandering stars in the Lairs, naturally.​

Yep. That's what astrology means.

That doesn't say that "Astrology is not magical power". It implies the exact opposite!

It does no such thing. It implies that it is..............astrology. A predictive "science" based on astronomy. Nowhere is there implication of magic.

When someone tries to predict my personality based on me being an Aries, no magic is involved. The same when they try to use astrological portents to predict how my week is going to go.

 

[cbwjm]

I'd say that for many, astrology has mystical significance. The whole premise of astrology is that the stars and planets and their alignments have some sort of mystical influence over our lives, astrologers may not be casting magic, but the belief is that there is something mystical about astrology (I don't actually believe in astrology, but fundamentally that is what some people believe). It also fits in well with the classic tropes of magical happenings when certain planets come into alignments, so many stories have this in them where a ritual cannot be performed until the moon is full, I believe some DnD spells also require it. I even read a Conan story where a king was brought low by sorcery where the master of the black circle had to wait until the stars were right to cast the spell.

We even have in DnD character kits, prestige classes, and warlock pacts that deal with astrological phenomena beyond just the WoHS. For any DnD campaign, I think linking magic to the moons or stars fits in quite well and bringing in a group of mages that have learned how to tap the ebb and flow of magic from the moons seems to fit quite well with many campaign settings, Greyhawk among them.

 

[Maxperson]

I'd say that for many, astrology has mystical significance. The whole premise of astrology is that the stars and planets and their alignments have some sort of mystical influence over our lives, astrologers may not be casting magic, but the belief is that there is something mystical about astrology (I don't actually believe in astrology, but fundamentally that is what some people believe). It also fits in well with the classic tropes of magical happenings when certain planets come into alignments, so many stories have this in them where a ritual cannot be performed until the moon is full, I believe some DnD spells also require it. I even read a Conan story where a king was brought low by sorcery where the master of the black circle had to wait until the stars were right to cast the spell.

We even have in DnD character kits, prestige classes, and warlock pacts that deal with astrological phenomena beyond just the WoHS. For any DnD campaign, I think linking magic to the moons or stars fits in quite well and bringing in a group of mages that have learned how to tap the ebb and flow of magic from the moons seems to fit quite well with many campaign settings, Greyhawk among them.

Mystical and metaphysical do not equate to magic. There is no implicit magic in the sentences @pemerton quoted. Can you link astrology and magic if you want to? Absolutely, and as you noted it can work out quite well. As a base pseudo-science, though, there's no magic involved.

 

[cbwjm]

Mystical and metaphysical do not equate to magic. There is no implicit magic in the sentences @pemerton quoted. Can you link astrology and magic if you want to? Absolutely, and as you noted it can work out quite well. As a base pseudo-science, though, there's no magic involved.

This is probably a case where we'd have to agree to disagree. You read that sentence and thing it has nothing to do with magic while [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and myself read and do. DnD worlds are worlds steeped in magic, so it makes sense to us that when the sage talks about astrology they are talking about magical occurrences that happen due to the various conjunctions of stars and planets.

 

[Maxperson]

This is probably a case where we'd have to agree to disagree. You read that sentence and thing it has nothing to do with magic while [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and myself read and do. DnD worlds are worlds steeped in magic, so it makes sense to us that when the sage talks about astrology they are talking about magical occurrences that happen due to the various conjunctions of stars and planets.

Here is the D&D Astrology proficiency from the 2e PHB. It's pretty clear that no magic is involved.

"Astrology: This proficiency gives the character some understanding of the supposed influences of the stars. Knowing the birth date and time of any person, the astrologer can study the stars and celestial events and then prepare a forecast of the future for that person. The astrologer's insight into the future is limited to the next 30 days, and his knowledge is vague at best. If a successful proficiency check is made, the astrologer can foresee some general event - a great battle, a friend lost, a new friendship made, etc. The DM decides the exact prediction (based on his intentions for the next few gaming sessions). Note that the prediction does not guarantee the result-it only indicates the potential result. If the proficiency check is failed, no information is gained unless a 20 is rolled, in which case the prediction is wildly inaccurate. Clearly this proficiency requires preparation and advance knowledge on the part of the DM. Because of this, it is permhible for the DM to avoid the question, although this shouldn't be done all the time. Players who want to make their DMs life easier (always a good idea) should consider using this proficiency at the end of a gaming don, giving the DM until the next d o n to come up with an answer. The DM can use this proficiency as a catalyst and guide for his adventures-something that will prompt the player characters to go to certain places or to try new things. Characters with the astrology proficiency gain a + 1 bonus to all navigation proficiency checks, provided the stars can be seen."

 

[cbwjm]

It's not astrology itself that is magical, it's the stars, moons, and planets that are. But like I said, just agree to disagree.

 

[billd91]

When some person in Tennessee decided to name a town Memphis, they weren't changing anything about Egypt. They were just recycling a name.

Recycling a name may cause confusion (qv someone who thinks they'll find Elvis's shrine in Egypt, or who goes to Tennessee hoping to see N-thousand year old pyramids). But it doesn't change anything about the thing whose name has been reused.

I mean, judging from your user name your name might be Bill. Does your identity get shaken every time a newborn is named Bill? I'm guessing not.

The people in Tennessee weren't creating a new edition of Egypt and letting the old one go out of print either. Adding a Memphis (see, adding) to the globe didn't remove or even change the other one. Yet the previous edition archons weren't going to appear in 4e at all. They were replaced by the elemental whatevers that came up in 4e. Moreover, I don't think you can completely separate the two even in 4e because they make it pretty clear that the old version of the archons weren't coming back and they wanted to have something else that PCs could fight (according to Wizards presents Worlds and Monsters).

My identity doesn't get shaken every time a new Bill is born, but depending on the location and last name, my identity becomes easier to confuse with others. There are at least 3 other people with my name in my general area - and I've gotten mistaken for at least 2 of them over the years. If someone's trying to get in touch with us, it's not immediately obvious which of us is which though we obviously do substantially different things in our lives. But if someone's looking for the journalist or contractor, they're going to be surprised and maybe displeased when they encounter the software tester. And we obviously aren't replacements for each other - like the archons in 4e were for the archons of previous editions.

 

[Shasarak]

Australia, however, is not a continent

Most standard lists of continents include it as one.

Isn't the continent called Australasia?

So no one cares where you find African Lions and yet everyone seems to have an opinion on Australia.

 

[Shasarak]

[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], [MENTION=94143]Shasarak[/MENTION]:

Wizards Presents: Worlds & Monsters, p 62:

[T]he design for elementals themselves had to change. . . . The elemental archons are a good example of a new creature born of this design approach. THey were created by the primordials to be elite soldiers . . . In the elemental hierarchy, they form the basis of world-scouring armies.​

The designers know that these are new creatures - they are not a reconcepting of Jeff Grubb's creation. It surprises me that this is even contentious.

I am not sure why I get to be dragged into the Archon debate, but your quote above misses the previous paragraph:

We redesigned some classic monsters and created new ones to round out the list...​

Meaning Efreet get to stay, Genies are gone and looks like we need some new slubs for the PCs to fight.

Again, contrast eladrin: from pp 40-41 of the same book:

Some of the existing good-aligned monsters did incorporate neeat designs that we wanted to preserve and improve upon. Most of the eladrins fell into that category. . . . [W]e noted their generally fey appearance, and this led to a natural association with the Feywild. . . . Eladrins were already powerful magical beings in previous editions of the game. Now they have a very similar role, but as mysterious lords and ladies of the Feywild.​

When they are reworking an existing creature, they tell us (and also tell us why).

I never did find an explanation for exactly why Eladrin and Elves were mooshed together but if I had to guess it was probably went along the lines of because the old Eladrin looked like Elves ergo Eladrin were Elves.

 

[pemerton]

Isn't the continent called Australasia?

Australasia is normally used to refer to the region - Australia, New Zealand, and some of the Pacific Islands (eg PNG/West Papua, Solomon Islands).