What's the big deal with point buy?

[Nonlethal Force]

Mind you, lately I have been running Spycraft, which uses 36 pints in character generation*.

*EDIT* Those be hard drinkin' super spies matey! Mayhap I meant points thar...

I'll say. But if you give 36 pints during character generation, I bet you don't get many complaints!

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I'll say. But if you give 36 pints during character generation, I bet you don't get many complaints!

Arrrr, ye be not listenen' to them the next mornin'! Ye'd be thinkin' I'd sawed the tops o' their 'eads off and poured burnin' powder down the 'ole.


The Auld Grump

 

[airwalkrr]

I'm sure that you've heard the expression "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Like it or hate it, it is true. A gun is not going to stand up and demand that it be used to kill someone. A person picks up the gun and uses it for their own purpose.

While true, it still belies the fact that countries where guns are illegal have a lower murder rate than those where guns are legal. Guns may not kill people by themselves, but in practice more people get killed when guns are around.

Point buy is the same way. Point buy may not force people to power game, but in practice more people power game when point buy is being used.

 

[airwalkrr]

And the game sucked. There were only a few character classes that actually contributed anything to the success of the group. If you werent a wizard or cleric, you may as well not even show up past 10th level. Believe it or not, something might actually benefit from years of research and experience behind its design, as opposed to what gygax and company cranked out one night after a bunch of stiff drinks.

Um, you do realize they played the game for nearly 10 years before releasing it in its final format?

 

[Hussar]

Ok, let me propose a couple of questions.

Take two characters, A and B. Both have identical stats. Would you then allow either of the following:

• Character B gains 50 000 gp worth of stat boost items at character generation.
• Character B starts two levels higher than Character A.

Why or why not?

 

[airwalkrr]

1. It prevents cheating so long as the DM actually still verifies the numbers rather than simply assuming that everyone DID adhere to the limitations it suggests. 'Tis sad but true that some gamers find it compelling to "cheat" even when the entire exercise is non-competitive.
2. It prevents whining about "He's got TWO 17's! I want another one!", though again it is because gamers fail to grasp some of the fundamental concept of "non-competitive" play. To give them their due they are encouraged in this by a game company that for 6 years has vastly over-emphasized rules in all things and payed little more than lip service to actual exercise of imagination. [Yeah, that's harsh but that's how I see it.]
3. It does provide a modicum of levelled playing field (though definitely nothing like what it is routinely given credit for.)
4. While your character will never be eggregiously outclassing other PC's at the games' inception your character will also be assured of never being notably less than average in any way as well. Looked at another way; it promotes a pervasive blandness to character "design".
5. It has long since ceased to be chic to take pride and enjoyment in having fun with a character suggested by unusual, random results, rather than one that is studiously, mathematically, and antiseptically engineered to provide properly packaged fun.

Point-buy is NOT a great evil, but it's no more flawless than random rolls. I'll use it if that's what the DM wants but it is not my preference. I try to keep my distaste for point-buy in line with the hyperbole in its favor. I do consider it less conducive to active imagination and roleplaying than taking random rolls. But that's just me.

That is brilliant. I really liked reading that.

 

[airwalkrr]

Ok, let me propose a couple of questions.

Take two characters, A and B. Both have identical stats. Would you then allow either of the following:

• Character B gains 50 000 gp worth of stat boost items at character generation.
• Character B starts two levels higher than Character A.

Why or why not?

The simplest answer as to why NOT is because a wise player would simply turn around, sell that stuff, and use it to buy items that grant smaller bonuses to more things. Another simple answer is that it would get stolen from the character very quickly unless everyone in your world was Lawful Good and respected the rights of others to their own property; 1st level characters do not defend their treasure well. If we are playing at level 10+, then I routinely give PCs disparate amounts of treasure for various reasons, most often as an rp reward. Oh no! Horrible imbalance there... not. It works fine.

Have I mentioned in my current campaign the dwarf fighter with the equivalent of 21 points outshines every single other character, even those with the equivalent of 36 points? All characters are 12th and 11th level. He has no special advantages the others do not have.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

While true, it still belies the fact that countries where guns are illegal have a lower murder rate than those where guns are legal. Guns may not kill people by themselves, but in practice more people get killed when guns are around.

Point buy is the same way. Point buy may not force people to power game, but in practice more people power game when point buy is being used.

I'm not arguing any of this. In fact, it furthers my point!

The problem is not with the system, it is with the people. I'll give you a case example with a large population sample so it should be normal in its distribution.

Police officers carry loaded weapons more often than not. They are taught and trained to use the weapon. The majority of police officers don't ever actually kill anyone because they are taught how and when to appropriately shoot someone (powergame?) - and perhaps more importantly, when not to shoot someone.

Conversely, take the general public. Sure, there are many people who own a gun and know how to use it appropriately. But there are also many people who think the gun means power that can be thrown in people's faces. That's when people get shot and die. Because they don't have an appropriate understanding on when it is appropriate or not.

So it can be with point buy. If you don't teach people how to roleplay and enjoy the game the right way, they're going to do what comes naturally. The world is geared towards self-glorification. Thus, unless people are taught, they tend to lean towards powergaming. But if you teach people to do the game properly ... then it shouldn't make a difference on what system they use.

Any system can be powergamed. Take the example of the person who rolls a whole sheet until they get the set they want. Take the one that only plays under a 42 point buy. If everyone in the party is doing it, then who am I to judge so long as they are having fun. But nobody can deny that both are powergaming!

 

[Hussar]

*snip*

Have I mentioned in my current campaign the dwarf fighter with the equivalent of 21 points outshines every single other character, even those with the equivalent of 36 points? All characters are 12th and 11th level. He has no special advantages the others do not have.

I really gotta ask. How? Is it the scintillating wit you bring? Sorry, can't be. With a 21 point buy dwarf fighter, you've got a 10 int at best. Perhaps its the deeply inciteful plans you craft. Oh wait, nope. 21 point buy dwarf fighter - 8 Wis in all likelihood. Perhaps its your incredible feats of strength? Huh? You've got a 14 strength AT BEST, so that can't be it.

Or, could it possibly be that you don't actually play the character that's on paper, but ignore the stats in favour of doing whatever you think is best all the time?

As far as stealing the stat boost items goes, that's an interesting idea. Do your NPC's regularly walk around casting detect magic on random people in towns and then rob them when they find something juicy enough? Otherwise, how could they possibly know that any of the character's items are magical? How very... Everquest of you.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I really gotta ask. How? Is it the scintillating wit you bring? Sorry, can't be. With a 21 point buy dwarf fighter, you've got a 10 int at best. Perhaps its the deeply inciteful plans you craft. Oh wait, nope. 21 point buy dwarf fighter - 8 Wis in all likelihood. Perhaps its your incredible feats of strength? Huh? You've got a 14 strength AT BEST, so that can't be it.

Snarky ... but it has a legitimate question burried in there.

Hee are a few examples of a 21 point buy dwarf (no class intended):

In order from STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA:

18, 12, 11, 8, 8, 6
14, 14, 16, 11, 8, 6
14, 14, 13, 10, 10, 8

Now, of course there are a bunch of other combinations. Stat-wise, the first one could make a decent fighter. But they'd be on the dumber side of life, making less than wise decisions often, and really not well liked for some personality reason. In combat, he might be okay. But the rest of the game?

I think that is the point. Anyone can use any set of stats if they are going to RP outside of what the stats say. But to RP any of these stats would likely give you some serious things to consider.