What's the big deal with point buy?

[Altalazar]

I am a huge advocate of point buy. Our group used to roll for stats and I was fine with it at the time. That was until we started our last campaign where we rolled the stats.

We had a session where we created our characters before the campaign actually started. We used the 4d6 drop lowest and arrange as desired method. One of the players rolled a set of stats where his lowest score was a 14. It took me six tries to even get a viable character (as per the rules, a minimum of a +1 total bonus and high score of at eleast 14 or something like that). Six tries! And my highest was a 15 or 16 with my second highest being a 14. The total bonuses of my character (after taking into account my stats below 10) came out to a +2. The other player's lowest score was a +2 by itself. (Everyone else ended with fairly average stats.)

I ended up playing a rogue and the other guy played a fighter type. With his INT being high, the other player put his extra skill point into rogue style skills (if I wasn't there he would back up the rogue since he has skill points to spare). If it wasn't for his armor check penalty his character would almost have been as good of a rogue as I was. (Yes, I maxed out my rogue skills - at low levels the difference between maxed class skills and maxed cross-class skills is NOT that big a difference.)

At least I had a nitch in the group, right? I could Open Locks better than anyone, right? Well, after I rolled less than 10 a few times Mr. 14 comes in and rolls a 20. This happened on more than one occation. It made me feel like he was a better rogue than my rogue was. I had lost my nitch when he could come in repeatedly and do my job better than I could (I admit - this was when I rolled poorly. That happens. Didn't make me feel any better though). Why was my character even there?

Inside combat, Mr. 14 dominated. It wasn't a team based combat style, it was Mr. 14 along with his sidekicks that kept him alive. I'm sure that over the course of the campaign that others had a chance to get in some cool kills and great shots. I simply don't recall any.

I can sneak attack in combat, right? That would require me to hit, and with my low stats I'm not going to go into melee and flank for that extra +2. Anything in comabt that would challange Mr. 14 would slaughter me. Anything built to fight me in combat would have a heart attack after Mr. 14 looked at him cross-eyed. And you can't have split combats (so Mr. 14 and myself are fighting seporate monsters) all the time.

It also wasn't a case that Mr. 14 was better at everthing than anyone else was. It was a case that his fighter was almost as good as the runt of the litter that was a rogue. There was such a difference in starting power levels and the character level was so low that the rogue was practically redundant. If my character had lived to... say... 10th level, he might have been able to get himself out of Mr. 14's shadow. Even then, 13 skill ranks in something isn't that far off from 6 ranks - but hopefully by then my DEX and magic equipment would hopefully make the gap be larger.

After Mr. 14 and the Runt Rogue - our group started using point buy. We started in the middle of that campaign after my rogue croaked in a method than would have left him with no equipment had I brought him back. No gear to help my runt stand out against the big guy in the party? I'll start over... thanks.

I apologize in advance for qutoing this all, but I wanted to capture the sentiment. THIS is the reason why point buy is superior to dice and always will be. The difference in power level you can have between characters can, by randomness, be HUGE. My very first 3.0 campaign that I played (DMd actually) I did the 4d6 method. One player ended up rolling well enough to be the equivalent of a 49 point buy. Another player rolled the equivalent of a 21 point buy. The difference was enormous. Anything that even barely challenged the 49 point character would slaughter the rest of the party. Anything that was a good match up for the rest of the party, as soon as mr 49er got in range, was toast within a round or two.

This sort of problem persisted even as they approached 9th level. So...
Stats are ALWAYS important. Even at higher levels.

The problem is differences between PCs. If all PCs roll 49 points worth, fine, if they all roll 21, fine - they are even and you can adjust accordingly. But then if you are saying it is only ok when they roll close to each other, you effectively have point buy by accident.

So that is why point buy is superior to dice. Any games where you have found dice work out ok were probably games where, by chance, the players rolled reasonably close to one another. Which is just point buy by accident.

 

[Aus_Snow]

There's a simple three-part test that could be done 'as a tie-breaker' if people felt so inclined:

a) What kind of stat adjustments are worth LA+1?
b) Would you, the hypothetical DM/GM of a campaign about to start at level 1, allow one PC to have those kinds of stat adjustments over the others in the same party, at chargen time, regardless of how the stats were generated?
c) Would you, the same hypothetical DM/GM of the same campaign, allow one PC to start at 2nd level?

I'm sure there are a number of interesting whys / why nots and such that could come from that, too.

 

[Crothian]

There's a simple three-part test that could be done 'as a tie-breaker' if people felt so inclined:

a) What kind of stat adjustments are worth LA+1?
b) Would you, the hypothetical DM/GM of a campaign about to start at level 1, allow one PC to have those kinds of stat adjustments over the others in the same party, at chargen time, regardless of how the stats were generated?
c) Would you, the same hypothetical DM/GM of the same campaign, allow one PC to start at 2nd level?

a) we'll give +4 to one stat, +2 to another, and -2 to something plus other cool abilities based on what the race is.

b) Of course because I trust my players and know our game. We will have fun regardless.

c) Of course and I've done that (allow normal races for everyone but one guy who had an ecl+1 character),

I beleive there is more to a character then the numbers and I run my game that way. It's worked for many years and I hope it will continue to work.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I think players' point buy expectations are just a sign of the times. The expectation today is that you can do whatever you want and tailor (aka min/max) your character exactly the way you want.

I use point buy IMC simply b/c I usually don't meet new players face to face until game day and it's easier to start character generation with point buy.

That being said, were it possible, I'd make everyone roll together. It's part of the game. If someone rolled horribly worse than the others, I'd either make up for it in other ways (e.g., magic items) or I'd let them reroll.

 

[Aus_Snow]

a) we'll give +4 to one stat, +2 to another, and -2 to something plus other cool abilities based on what the race is.

Nope. That wasn't the question. No race involved here, so no "cool abilities" need apply. Just ability modifiers. For example, +2 (in modifiers) over all other PCs? +3 over them? +4?

I beleive there is more to a character then the numbers and I run my game that way. It's worked for many years and I hope it will continue to work.

Very cool. And, unfortunately, very rare in this kind of flavour. Don't you also let players choose their characters' ability scores, without any rolling/buying/whatever. . . ?

 

[Crothian]

Nope. That wasn't the question. No race involved here, so no "cool abilities" need apply. Just ability modifiers. For example, +2 (in modifiers) over all other PCs? +3 over them? +4?

ecls don't work that way. It makes for a nice intellectual exercise but has no application in the game because a character that has +10 point more then the others isn't assumed to be of higher level.

Very cool. And, unfortunately, very rare in this kind of flavour. Don't you also let players choose their characters' ability scores, without any rolling/buying/whatever. . . ?

I learned many years ago that my style of gaming can be far removed from what others are doing with the same game. And yes, I let players pick their ability scores.

 

[Aus_Snow]

ecls don't work that way. It makes for a nice intellectual exercise but has no application in the game because a character that has +10 point more then the others isn't assumed to be of higher level.

Really. . . ?

So, for example, an extra +1 modifier in say, Str(+1 melee, damage), Dex (+1 ranged, initiative, AC, Ref save) & Con (+1 HP/level, Fort save) - with a couple of other smaller advantages that these bring - isn't worth a level? No? Then how about another +1 in modifiers in each (double all the previous stuff, obviously). . . ?

Surely there has to be a point (and that's what I was asking at 'a') where ability modifiers are worth a level. Surely.


Anyway, I thought it'd be an interesting exercise, yeah. If I end up loosing at teh intarweb, oh well.

 

[Nellisir]

Look at a game with point buy and the vast majority will have all even stats and descending order or importance.

Part of my reason for dropping ability "scores" in favor of the modifiers.

 

[Crothian]

Really. . . ?

So, for example, an extra +1 modifier in say, Str(+1 melee, damage), Dex (+1 ranged, initiative, AC, Ref save) & Con (+1 HP/level, Fort save) - with a couple of other smaller advantages that these bring - isn't worth a level? No? Then how about another +1 in modifiers in each (double all the previous stuff, obviously). . . ?

Surely there has to be a point (and that's what I was asking at 'a') where ability modifiers are worth a level. Surely.

I'm sure at some point it is, but the game isn't designed to do that. I say that because there is a completely lack of rules that say what is worth ecl+1. All they have are examples of things that are the different ecls.

But to make a guess we'll say +2 across the board (all 6 stats). That answer is just for the thread, I wouldn't have a character like that in my own games be a level higher just based on stats.

 

[Crothian]

Part of my reason for dropping ability "scores" in favor of the modifiers.

So now they just have descending stats in order of importance?