What's the big deal with point buy?

[Crothian]

All characters start off with equality in stats.

But all points buys are not equal. Even if the point buy everyone starts with the same. The only way point buy is balanced is if the players all can take advanatage of it the same way and if all races and all classes and everything else is balanced. It does no good for everyone to have the same stats if bob's class and race combo out does fred's.

 

[Cedric]

But all points buys are not equal. Even if the point buy everyone starts with the same. The only way point buy is balanced is if the players all can take advanatage of it the same way and if all races and all classes and everything else is balanced. It does no good for everyone to have the same stats if bob's class and race combo out does fred's.

QFT

If the DM says, we're doing 28 point buy, have characters ready by Friday.

I guarantee you, I'm going to get more mileage out of my Sorceror's stats than you're going to get out of your Monk's stats with that point buy.

Cedric

 

[Cor Azer]

I prefer point buy myself - as a DM I like it because I often work on my NPCs during my lunch at work where it is conspicuous to be rolling a bunch of dice, and as a player I like because I can work on my characters when the DM isn't around, and tailor him to my vision or concept - while I have numerous concepts I want to eventually try, I don't want one picked randomly due to the fall of the dice, mostly because I want it to mesh with the other characters (again getting to the making the character before the game starts - each player tends to pipe up with what he/she wants to play and then we go off to make the PCs; there's enough conversation to coordinate options, but we don't all sit down together).

I'm not a big fan of rolling because in my experience, no matter how smart the player is, no matter how good the character is in any other situation, I always and inevitably have one or more players complaining about a badly rolled attribute. For the entire campaign. Even if it never comes up to hurt the character. Worse though, in some ways, are the players who use it brag... (ie, "Come on, even I challenged the Black Knight, and I only have a strength 8!")

As a DM though, I usually allow the players the choice - 4d6, drop lowest, and arrange, or point-buy. That said, my point-buy is pretty flexible (I believe I yoinked it from someone back on Eric Noah's old boards) where the PC is given a base 22 points or somesuch, but up to 10 extra points can be earned through a detailed background. Most of my players develop a background anyways, so opt for the point-buy to (I, and they, admit) power-game a little.

 

[Hussar]

What's this huge hang-up on everything being fair, and balanced, and even? It's very possible that the 20-point-buy guy will end up being as useful (or more so) to the party than the 70-point guy; you can't know until you drop the puck and play. Never mind they'll advance at different rates, end up with different items and abilities, and so on...

Enforce a rule that only the DM can toss out a set of rolls; otherwise, play what you roll. Your players will be more creative for it, either in how they play "sub-optimal" characters or in how they get them killed...

Lanefan

Hrm, a 70 point buy compared to a 20 point buy is effectively about 50k gp worth of stat boost items (and quite likely considerably more). So, it's perfectly fair that one PC starts off with the wealth of a 9th level character at 1st level?

Sure, the difference between an 18 and a 14 isn't huge at higher levels, but, the difference gets much larger when EVERY stat is higher.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I won't play in a game that forces rolled stats for the same reason I won't play in a campaign starting at first level and often won't play in a game with significant multiclassing restrictions: I come to the table with a character concept and do not expect to have to trust to luck, or worse yet time, to get to the point where I'm playing the character I want.

If the roll for stats culture didn't annoy me, I suppose I should stick around and see if the stats I roll happen to come out somewhere around what I imagine the character having. If so, huzzah, I really should stay if that's my only objection. If not, I can always walk after rolling too high or too low, and good riddance.

From my perspective as a player, it has nothing to do with balance (although it is, in fact, probably the single most important consideration when it comes to balancing the game) and everything to do with concept. As a GM, I insist on point buy because a) it is balanced and, more importantly, b) it forces players to decide on a concept rather than coming up with one on the fly.

To be fair, this is also why I prefer 100% point buy games like M&M, HERO and SilCore to any version of D&D.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

But all points buys are not equal. Even if the point buy everyone starts with the same. The only way point buy is balanced is if the players all can take advanatage of it the same way and if all races and all classes and everything else is balanced. It does no good for everyone to have the same stats if bob's class and race combo out does fred's.

But the number of class and race combos that can possibly outweigh a significant difference in stats are miniscule, particularly if you're sticking to late 3.0 and 3.5 material. Not many classes give a flat 'same at everything except you have +1 skill point/level, +2 to hit and damage (+3 with a 2h weapon), +2 hp/level, +1 AC, +2 Fort, +1 Will and +1 Ref saves.' Yet that's not even an unusual result with rolled stats.

 

[Lanefan]

Hrm, a 70 point buy compared to a 20 point buy is effectively about 50k gp worth of stat boost items (and quite likely considerably more). So, it's perfectly fair that one PC starts off with the wealth of a 9th level character at 1st level?

Assuming all things equate to wealth...which they don't...and assuming the stat boosts would make that much of a difference in how the character is played...not always likely...then perhaps. But just because Darrien (our recently-deceased Barbarian) was 6 points stronger than Bjarnni (my heavy-ranger) did I thus see Darrien as being x-thousand g.p. richer? Never!

An example I've used elsewhere here: (numbers from memory; the bonus totals are correct)

18-16-15-13-13-11 = +11 total bonus, no idea of point buy cost.
15-12-11-10-10-7 = +2 total bonus, no idea for point buy (but 7's don't happen there).

These were the stats for the first two 3e characters I rolled up and played, for the same campaign. Three guesses which one is still going...and recently became longest-serving PC in that game. (hint: she's still the same Wis. 7 she always was!) And I sure don't see her as being many tens of thousands of g.p. poorer than the other guy whose stats average is 3.5 higher. Why? Because the stats don't make the character!

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

I won't play in a game that forces rolled stats for the same reason I won't play in a campaign starting at first level and often won't play in a game with significant multiclassing restrictions: I come to the table with a character concept and do not expect to have to trust to luck, or worse yet time, to get to the point where I'm playing the character I want.

Where I come to the table to play, and sometimes the characterization just makes itself up as I go along. It's called being chaotic...

I'm just not that hung up on playing *that* character *now*...I can wait, and a better idea might well rear its ugly head in the meantime...

Lanefan

 

[Crothian]

But the number of class and race combos that can possibly outweigh a significant difference in stats are miniscule, particularly if you're sticking to late 3.0 and 3.5 material. Not many classes give a flat 'same at everything except you have +1 skill point/level, +2 to hit and damage (+3 with a 2h weapon), +2 hp/level, +1 AC, +2 Fort, +1 Will and +1 Ref saves.' Yet that's not even an unusual result with rolled stats.

That's because balance is much more complicated then this. Many times one is trying to compaire apples and oranges to determi8ne if things are balanced. I'm just saying you have to look at everything and not just one minor area for balance.

 

[Hussar]

*snip*

18-16-15-13-13-11 = +11 total bonus, no idea of point buy cost.
15-12-11-10-10-7 = +2 total bonus, no idea for point buy (but 7's don't happen there).

These were the stats for the first two 3e characters I rolled up and played, for the same campaign. Three guesses which one is still going...and recently became longest-serving PC in that game. (hint: she's still the same Wis. 7 she always was!) And I sure don't see her as being many tens of thousands of g.p. poorer than the other guy whose stats average is 3.5 higher. Why? Because the stats don't make the character!

Lanefan

Two things.

One, I've seen sevens and even three sixes in a point buy character. The Orc barbarian in my WLD game has them. Not too bright, not someone you'd bring home to mom, and definitely short sighted, but, built for the beating.

Secondly, if you are playing a character beyond its abilities, how are you actually playing the character? Does your Wis 7 character frequently make very poor choices? She should be. But, then again, most people tend to ignore that end of the stats.

Look, if I have 50 points over your character, then I am effectively two or three levels higher than you are. That might not bother you, but, I'll guarantee it bothers lots of people. When you look at all the complaining that this or that is broken the first culprit is almost always the point cost of the character.