What's the big deal with point buy?

[ThoughtBubble]

I would agree that this is one significant reason for the divide. I would be in that second category. At any one time I may have dozens of tenuous character concepts floating around in my brain. Once I roll stats and know how I can assign my stats, I'll start weighing which of those character concepts is going to get the nod.

Some of those concepts may work well in a point buy game with little variance between stats....but many won't.

There are times when I'll sit on a concept for maybe years while I wait for the right rolls to come along to make the character flourish.

I'm playing one of those right now. A strictly melee character, part Barbarian and part Fighter, with a 14 int and 16 wisdom.

I've no intention of taking any classes, prestige classes or the like that rely on those stats, but this allows me the chance to legitimately roleplay the character as being very, very different than your average step in and slug something character.

I suppose I could have roleplayed him that way after having assigned him a 10 int and 12 wisdom...but I won't do that. Doesn't fit the character. Or, I could have tanked his physical stats, relying on rage to bring them back up and had nice mental stats so I could roleplay him that way...but again, doesn't work. I imagine the character as being physically imposing and capable. A naturally skilled warrior. *shrugs*

ymmv

That's a pretty good philosophy there. How often do you get to play? How long do the games last? I'm primarally a DM, and I think I've gotten to play three times in the last 7 years. And one of those games only lasted 2 sessions.

The randomly rolled wizard above was the non Point Buy one that lasted for a while. But my DM was also a wussy when it came to kililng people, so getting a new character via accidental death was right out. The result was that I spent almost a year playing a character I wasn't really enjoying that much, who somehow the DM decided was story critical, beffore I decided to leave the game. Then I was offered a chance to roll up a new character.

Also, another question: When do you think stats become noticably above normal?

I've noticed a tendancy in the people that I've played with here who were "hardcore" D&D 2E players. They all tended to view a 14 as mediocre, and only really start thinking of a stat as above average at 16. And even then, a 16 is the minimum in "Strong" for a strong character.

If you start playing with the idea that a 12 is noticably above normal, than a 14 is good enough to be a 'pretty strong guy', and a 16 is the 'strongest guy in town' and an 18 is 'amazing carnival strongman'. And that sort of mindset changes what stats feel bland.

But again, I admire your patience to keep waiting for the stats you need. : )

 

[Cedric]

That's a pretty good philosophy there. How often do you get to play? How long do the games last? I'm primarally a DM, and I think I've gotten to play three times in the last 7 years. And one of those games only lasted 2 sessions.

The randomly rolled wizard above was the non Point Buy one that lasted for a while. But my DM was also a wussy when it came to kililng people, so getting a new character via accidental death was right out. The result was that I spent almost a year playing a character I wasn't really enjoying that much, who somehow the DM decided was story critical, beffore I decided to leave the game. Then I was offered a chance to roll up a new character.

Also, another question: When do you think stats become noticably above normal?

I've noticed a tendancy in the people that I've played with here who were "hardcore" D&D 2E players. They all tended to view a 14 as mediocre, and only really start thinking of a stat as above average at 16. And even then, a 16 is the minimum in "Strong" for a strong character.

If you start playing with the idea that a 12 is noticably above normal, than a 14 is good enough to be a 'pretty strong guy', and a 16 is the 'strongest guy in town' and an 18 is 'amazing carnival strongman'. And that sort of mindset changes what stats feel bland.

But again, I admire your patience to keep waiting for the stats you need. : )

I'm playing less now than I've played in years, only about once every 3 weeks (thankfully I've found a great group of guys to play with), but I'd like to play once a week if I could.

Still though, I'm on my 4th D&D character in the past year. If you only rarely get a chance to play or haven't played that much, I could see the allure for point buy. You can guarantee that you'll be able to have a playable character who can fill most roles you might want to tackle.

As to what constitutes a high score...

If you cut your teeth on 1e and 2e (like I did), then yes, I think there is a natural instinct to not think of stats as being high until they hit the 16-18 mark. However, I'm completely happy with a 14 in everything except for my primary casting stat if I'm a full caster (in which case, I prefer at least a 15 so I can cast 9th level spells by the time I'm eligible for them).

I don't think stats become notably above normal in 3.0 and 3.5 pretty much ever. I mean, if I am a warrior who had a 15 strength at character creation. By 20th level I could have spent 5 points to make that a 20, read a tome (or used two rings of three wishes) to make it a 25, then put on a belt to make it a 31. That's not "that" much more impressive than the 34 I'd have if I started with an 18 strength.

There are so many things that add to stats in 3.x that high stats themselves are diluted, eventually everyone has access to them in all but a low magic game.

If I had a belt of (storm) giant strength in 2e, I was leaps and bounds ahead of the fighter without one. Perhaps almost an order of magnitude difference.

Today, it's +3 to attack, +3 to damage on an opponent who may have 150 (or more) hit points *shrugs* (my point there being that hit point values, especially at higher levels, are much higher in 3.x...especially once you add some class levels).

As to patience, I hope to never run out of character concepts. The day I am asked to roll up a D&D character and realize there is nothing I want to play...well, nevermind, I don't want to face that day. Imagination in life, is everything.

Cedric

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I, and as far as I know my players, never go into a game with a particular character in mind. I decide that after I roll stats. I guess that is why we always do rolling, since it never closes off a character concept.

 

[Hussar]

See, now I'm the opposite and always have been. I have a concept in mind, even if its just, "Hey, I'd like to play an X" and work from there. When we rolled dice, it worked, and it just works a smidgeon easier with point buy.

 

[Dracorat]

We use 28 point buy and the average HP method.

Everyone resists it at first, but by the time they get to level six or seven, they usually start making statements that they would never go back to rolling.

Point buy does encourage power gaming (IMO), but as long as people aren't being munchkinist about it, that also means that it also increases satisfaction.

 

[kenobi65]

Point buy does encourage power gaming (IMO)

See, I have the exact opposite opinion.

I have a few players, across the groups I DM for, that prefer rolling stats. A small part of that is, I think, nostalgia (they've been playing since 1E days), but they have told me that the reason they want to roll is for the chance at "really high scores".

 

[Lanefan]

I usually have a vague concept in mind when rolling up a character, but the concept will usually work regardless of the stats I get. For example, if I'm thinking of a bossy, officious mage to whom rank and status is everything, I can play that on any stats. That said, I'm well aware that if my concept is something that requires high stats (ex.: 1e Ranger, Monk, etc.) then there's a very real chance it ain't gonna happen...and so I'll dream up something else.

This 1-20 planning idea borders on ridiculous - it makes little or no allowance for in-game changes or disruptions, and if the player makes a big deal about the work involved in said planning it puts a silent obligation on the DM to let the character survive...yuck...

And to whoever posted that 3e introduced choices rather than privileges, bravo!

Lanefan

 

[Cedric]

Point buy does encourage power gaming (IMO), but as long as people aren't being munchkinist about it, that also means that it also increases satisfaction.

I don't think either method encourages power gaming. Each method in its own way can help facilitate power gaming. However, ultimately a power gamer, is a power gamer. They will work within the establish rules (as far as they can stretch them) in order to squeeze out every advantage they can for their character.

Some will do it shamelessly and be proud of it.

Some will do it defensively and adamantly point out that they are just trying to be as effective as possible with their character.

Some will make some small aspect of their character sub-optimal to salve their conscience.

However, regardless what they do, they are not suddenly going to become a power gamer because of the character generation method in place.

 

[Dracorat]

I don't think either method encourages power gaming. Each method in its own way can help facilitate power gaming. However, ultimately a power gamer, is a power gamer. They will work within the establish rules (as far as they can stretch them) in order to squeeze out every advantage they can for their character.

Not that doing so is necessarily bad. The degree of bending and stretching is key. Keep reading...

Some will do it shamelessly and be proud of it.

There is nothing to be ashamed of unless you are trying to break mechanics of the game. (Powergaming vs. Munchkinism)

Some will do it defensively and adamantly point out that they are just trying to be as effective as possible with their character.

Completely reasonable IMO.

Some will make some small aspect of their character sub-optimal to salve their conscience.

And if it does salvage their conscience, then they probably succeeded.

However, regardless what they do, they are not suddenly going to become a power gamer because of the character generation method in place.

I agree, however, the possibilities and ease of opportunity do lend themselves toward specific methods (including some of the dice rolling methods).

 

[Cedric]

I absolutely agree that there is nothing wrong with some reasonable power gaming. In fact, 3.x very much encourages it, imo.

I have often found that once in a blue moon if you let your players go with truly egregious stats (read, egregiously high, not low)...that they'll get a lot of it out of their system.

They'll also discover that I wildly alter encounters in order to keep them challenging for the players. I disregard the ECL, LA, CR system and pretty much just assign xp as I feel necessary. Also, if I think the players can handle it, I'll try to throw just "enough" at them to keep them on the edge, but not TPK.

I don't mind fudging some die rolls if I felt I overdid, or change the encounter some. But I avoid blatant deus ex machina (no last minute, surprise NPC calvary charge).

But, if my players do something silly, ill thought out, poorly prepared or just stupid...I'll kill 'em in a heartbeat.